Ep. 177 Monty Waldin interviews Adriano Zago (Biodynamic Viticulture Consultant & Enologist) | Natural Wine

Italian wine podcast. Chinching with Italian wine people. Hello. This is the Italian wine podcast. Name is Monte Walden. My guest today is Adriano Zago. Adriano is a biodynamic consultant working mainly in Tuscany, welcome Adriano. Welcome to everybody. Now, Adriano, just to start, how did you get into what you do now? Will your family farmers come from a farming background? Do you used to go gardening when you were a kid? How did you how did you stop? Yeah. Actually, not at all because my family was not in this business, and I study as a agronomist and a winemaker. And I start with a conventional agriculture, and it is over very soon that it was not my cup of tea. And so I was quite lucky at this time because I So when was this? How old were you? I was kind of fifteen years ago. Okay. So you were how when were you born? I born in the twenty seven. Oh, you're very young. Yeah. Kind of. Yeah. You're very young. You look like you're about fifteen. Oh. It's all about the big food you eat. Thank you. Come on. And so I discovered visiting some estate that was something retouching for me on this estate. And after that, it discovered it was a biodynamic farm. And so little by little. So where was this biodynamic farmer? What was it called? One was, you know, very nice. One was, either castello de Ram pola, you can turn in Canti. Mhmm. So very, very well known Canti classic O estate. Absolutely. One of the pioneers in in the real practice, by dynamic, Viticulture and agriculture even. So did you go there specifically to work, or did you go there because you were curious about I was curious. First of all, I was curious. And after some years, we get in France, and they ask to, you know, to work with them, to share with them some experience that they had in France, in New Zealand, in India. And so we start, you know, and we spend three, lovely, really lovely years together. Okay. Castell de Di lampola. Yeah. So which, which year was that in that three year period working with them? It was between ten and fifteen years ago. Was your you were actually paid as a as a as a vineyard worker or as a as a consultant? No. No. I start as a vineyard worker and a vineyard, you know, manager because you're a you're an agronomist as well. Right? Yes. I'm an agronomist first of all. And after also Waemaker, I started for both. So you've got, but you're both an anologist, so you're both an agronomist and an anologist, which is quite rare, isn't it? Yes. And I'm I'm really, you know, I'm I feel really lucky about that because when when you're talking about wine, I can really understand what's happening on the soil, and I can also gast with people and managing also their crops, you know, vegetables, fruits, and they work also on these crops. And for me, it's a huge challenge, and I really honor it to you to work with a farmer that's, you know, grow vines, fruit, vegetable, wet, and all sort of crops. So wheat, olives. Absolutely. Yeah. So basically you're an agronomist. You're a viticulturist. You're a biodynamic expert. Yeah. And you're an ologist. Yeah. That's anything else you champion? Well, champions? Yeah. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. Wait. No. Wait, man. Listen. For me, in my vision, it's quite normal to be that. If you want to really apply it by dynamic. Because if you, if I take to your example as a as a doctor. If you visit a one omeopathic doctor, it's first of all a doctor and supposed to be a good one. And after that, it's even, specialist in omeopathic. And for me to be, our omeopathic specialist sorry about how dynamic finally, especially it is necessary to be at least an agronomist and even a winemaker. Right. So you can link you can join the dots between the the the great growing and the great processing. Yeah. So that that is what makes you very unusual in the world of wine trust me folks. Alright. There are very few. I didn't know that. No. It's true. There are very few people at Adiana who has, the technical knowledge as well as obviously the the passion for, by the way. So, Castadil Rampolo, are you working there? And you learned a lot from them? What was the next step? The next step will start to be a consultant because people start to ask me, you know, little things and step by step. So why were they? Why were suddenly people getting interested in organic and pandemic? And which year are we talking? Was this ten years ago? Fifteen years ago? Yes. Ten between ten, fifteen years ago, we we was talking about, you know, toscanning mostly. Then, Kentucky class ago, and no, Tuscany in general, honestly. And I start I restarted in Tuscany where I moved eighteen years ago. And so I started consulting the state in Tuscany, a little by little, out of Tuscany out of Italy, blah blah blah. But were people interested in organics then because they were about pesticides, or were they interested in organics and biodynamics because they felt it would make, better quality, or were they interested in organics and biodynamics because maybe the trend for, say, the Supertuscan wines, these French that didn't always work very well in a hot tuscan climate weren't really delivering what they wanted. What do you think people's motivations were? Well, in my in my case, I think that there was more drastic because I never touched organic agriculture, and I watched from the conventional, from education to biodynamic. Straight away. Didn't go for rabbit at all. No. For me, it's not an option. Why not? Because, you know, just don't use poison. It's better than nothing, but it's not enough. And so I don't want to spend my life and because it's cost a lot of sacrifice working and traveling around the world. Just don't use pesticides. They won't really be involved in decoration or something better about, you know, vitality of the soil, quality food, quality process, oil maintenance system. And so I'm really interested on that. Yeah. I always describe what you're saying about organics is about what you don't do. I don't spray this. I don't spray that. And biodynamics is about what you do do, which is I do spray spray, cow manure sprays, I do spray, I use dandelion, horse to own various plants. It's taking care, the concept. The, the big difference for me is really taking care of the piece of land, whether if you grow vines, you're making wine, you make your apricots, apricots, or whatever, but this is not really enough. Just don't use poison because we have any sort of poison that's about, you know, on the air, on the water, and whatever, then we really, in my opinion, need to create fertility, create more vitality, and biodiversity, and we have some tools specific in, biodynamic agriculture, you know, the same that you mentioned it now. So what about this idea of a biodynamic vineyard should try and become a self sustaining organism to try and be as self sufficient as possible in terms of fertility? For compost, for example. Yeah. Yeah. We we have, some typical tools in biodynamic as the combo that you name. Other wise, but we really start from taking care of the soil. And, with the soil, we start to work with eliminating herbicides and whatever, and introducing, green manure, for example. It's a green manure cover crops. Yeah. Cover crops. And different sort of cover crops, studying the painting, you know, the needs of the soil, the needs of the vineyards and whatever. Okay. I'll give you an example of cover crops. So I'm on, say, a very fertile soil. Yeah. So I'm in the in the low part of the valley, and my vine are very vigorous, and I always have problems with, say, botrytis and things like that. What are you gonna suggest I do as I sew between my vine rows as a cover crop? In this sample, we work with a permanent cover crop. Permanent one. Yeah. Yeah. As a serial, And even, you know, the polyannual herbs, that's really aggressive herbs able to to calm. And so we is a is a powerful tool in order to maintain the low vigor. So you're saying that the cover crop is like a pump. It sort of pumps water out of the soil. Yep. As it grows, it obviously needs water to live. And then it, that evaporates as it's super. Make it competition with wines. That is, you know, the gold. Then you reduce the view. It's like a break. You're slowing down the vine. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Alright. Now I've got a vineyard on the top of a hill. Yeah. Save the six hundred six hundred meters in Canti Glasgow. Very luminous, very bright lot of solar radiation, steep slopes, cholesterol soil, free draining, and you come along with your weird biodynamic ideas. Everyone aren't gonna start selling cover crops. I mean, no way you're gonna kill my vineyard. What are you gonna sow there? Yeah. That's what I call the oxidative soil. It's a really high consumption soil in Northern of organic matter. So we need to use all our best strategy to grow organic matter on this soil, and starting by green manures or cover crops with legumes, with all plants that's bringing nitrogen into the soil. Yeah. And then legumes, legumes suck nitrogen out of the atmosphere, and they've released them into the silver roots. So that's a food source. Yep. Everybody knows a piece. Peace, peas. Yeah. Peeze and beans. Yeah. Peeze and beans. Exactly. It's a popular example of about leguminos. We're using a lot of five hundred preparations. So just the five hundred is the horn manure preparation that's used in Vyanamax, which is a soil spray made of, fermented cow manure, which is full of microorganisms and life. Perfect. And then we use, you know, teeling system soil. We we might also give some organic manure, you know, animal, animal manure, and so we use also composting technique. We try to compost all part of the vineyard that we don't use in making wine. We just use a little part of the crop producing wine because we drink the juice. So, I forgot. So you mean, you're you're recycling the seeds and crops which come out of the winery. Seats, peppers, and wood, which we have, particular machine full chop. So, basically, this is the the pruneings that everyone has to wear when it went to, obviously, you prune the vines and you can you can, chop them up it's obviously, it's a little bits of wood, which are full of carbon. Yeah. And other, nutrients and you chop those up. And, what makes sense there is that vines used to grow, it originated in the edge of the forest. And the idea is that this woody material creates a micro biological balance that makes the vine feel that she's back in the forest, and so she's incredibly happy. You're right. Yeah. That's exactly that. And we process that in a compost technique following some, biodynamic, ideas. And, you know, glating with biodynamics preparation and blah, blah, blah. And so we take that. And after we add this, with organic manure, with organic compost to the soil, when the soil is really poor in, in addition to the other technique that we already use. So by composting what Adriana is saying is that, you're putting soil back into the soil, but obviously the the wood and all the rest of it that grew actually did come from the soil. So you're actually putting that back. And the idea is that you're keeping the farm gate closed. Yep. And you're not buying infertility, say, in a plastic sack with fertilizers, you're closing the farm gate, and you're using your terroir to enrich your terroir. Exactly. And otherwise, when we don't, we we have not enough resources in our, in our state, we try to make some alliance with all other neighbors maybe they are, you know, the producer of milk, why not, on the other race, they they race other other animals. So they'll have cows that produce lovely, manure, which is good for composting. Because the organic, the, sorry, the organ is that the the farming organ is that we have in our mind, it doesn't, you know, it doesn't need to, to be the same with the, you know, with the With the boundary. Exactly. Yeah. You're right. And so we can really make a nice alliance with other other other producers and make a big organized, agricultural arguing left the world. So what Adriana is saying is is, in the idea of biopsies, you're trying to create a self sustaining living organism. So if you have a vineyard and you've only got four hectares, just so your whole your whole vineyard is, your your land owning, you say four hectares, and three point eight of that is vineyard, Yeah. You really don't have a lot of space to have cows and that would produce manure for fertility. So what Adriana is saying is if your neighbors have cows, you can maybe use some of them and you can give them some wine in return and you may have a cereal farmer down the road as well, and he lacks a bit of a new, and he can give some grain or some other seeds that he's growing. And this is a really revolutionary, but incredibly sensible idea that farming, we've become totally lost and and become a very individual, and also in wine growing. This idea of terroir. My sight is better than yours. Lleaning across the fence and talking to your neighbors is absolutely fundamental for good organic and biodynamic management. Sorry. I just had to say that, but that's what Adriana was saying. And it's so rare to see and hear that, you know, in Tuscany where people are said to be quite the Tuscans are tough. And Italian's a very individualistic, which is a wonderful thing. Don't get me wrong. It's a dense part of that is the beauty of Italy, but leaning over the fence and doing what Adriana is doing and encouraging farmers to do is revolutionary. Trust me folks, it is. Okay. Next. Sorry. Okay. Thank you. And then, yeah, that's it. The agriculture, our games, was a a marvelous stuff that Steiner gave gave to us. And so that's, you know, that's more or less the technique that we can use for starting to improving improving the function of the soil when one soil is really poor and oxidative. So So you make it sound so simple, but I I work as a consultant. It's not. What are the difficulties? Is it is it, is it people management? Is it finance? Is it people feeling that you, oh my god, this pandemic guy is gonna destroy the farm in two seconds? What what are what are the what are the concerns that people raise with you? Normally, when somebody, you know, think that's the bad dynamic going to destroy the the farms doesn't call me. And so That is that is easy. No. In my opinion, the human factor, are more difficult to manage, because sometimes you you can really not manage that. And because the technique, they are because you're a technique, the biodynamic technique in the in wine cellar or in the vineyard after a while, you manage little by little there. But the human factor is the more challenging one on your state because you have to, you know, to feel what's happened when you end or in a in a farm in the morning. For me, the challenge, the first challenge of the day is feeding what's it on the air. And it's So you're sensing what what their, maybe their fear or their optimism or their. Yeah. And that is not just a overly romantic is a tech, a dramatically technique stuff because in one, you know, in one regard, you should able to understand if there is something that you have to catch. And after that, work with that, work on that, for the rest of the day. It's a bit like being, a manager of a sports team, like a football team or a cricket team. The psychology of the of the of the the psychology of the tractor driver, for example, will be totally different to the psychology of the technologist. It will be different to the psych ecology of the owner of the of the estate. So the owner of the estate may want one thing. And the workers are are afraid they think God, you know, if we go by a dynamic, we're gonna we're gonna go out of business and I'm gonna lose my job. I have a mortgage. I have two kids. And that's why, it is people management is so so critical. It's not just about knowing your biodynamics and your lunar cycles. It's about psychology, isn't it? And I think the more talking, are you talking, do their stuff is to have a result. Because after a while, you can blah, blah, blah, for years, for years and years, talk and talk and talk, but the owner, the director, everyone, want to see some kind of result. And so they need, and I need, first of all, to see that soil change, product change, wine change, also the social part of the states change. And so I think that in a couple of years, my, you know, my time is between two you and three years. I need to see maybe more than something. I say something or when I say something, I really something. And so we need to to to touch, to feel, and to, to eat, and drink something different than before. Yeah. You need to get results, please. Absolutely. In a way. So how I mean, you're working with some some larger states, some very large estates. In Tuscon and elsewhere, is it easier working with a smaller state or is it easier working with a bigger state? That's really different. Sometimes it's really easy to work with a big one because, you know, everything is well, you know, you can organize our job probably. And then sometimes it can be also more difficult to work with, with a small estate because I remember every time that, you know, a small producer is a producer, father, husband, and many other stuff, and so he has not time to manage at the best all that, you know, all all the day. And so that, but Zogocaside is really depends. It really depends. He he decides doesn't describe so much. About, you know, the difficulties of my job. But is it easier working with when you walk into an estate, for example? So a smaller state may be family owned. Yeah. So the tractor driver, the winemaker, the invoice sender, the publicity person is one person. Whereas in a bigger estate, you'll have a vineyard manager who's an employee, a sales manager who is an employee, and obviously then an owner at the top. Does that make it easier that you've got staff that have a delegated jobs that you can deal with rather than say a family person who has like fifteen different titles. It's really depending. My my opinions in how deeper the people, the person want to be involved in the process is really depending on that, because sometimes you can really find some director that is so patient about that, and that is, you know, is a dream work with people like that. And sometimes you can find a small owner that is completely about my job and, you know, blah, and so we can sometimes, you know, I can also can't I I should can people because maybe they are more fanatic than me. Does interesting you say you should come I'm not, you know, I've know exactly what you're saying. You you have some wine growers that want to be a hundred and fifty percent biodynamic within two minutes, and they just and you gotta say, hey, calm down. Yeah. Because sometimes, you know, people call you and they say, I want to start a bite, you know, by the horse. Okay, please. Yeah. Don't call me. We can have all the horses in few years, but not today. Not today, even not tomorrow. And so in this case, you have to make a priority. You have to be, in my opinion, stay really technical with a nice vision. So you can dream, but with the feet on the ground. Yeah. That's very, very well put. I think you're right. It's step by step, isn't it? Yeah. And keeping people's expectations realistic. Yeah. And sometimes you can really go very fast. If you are realistic, you can go faster sometime that you are a dreamer. So if I have a really heavily conventional vineyard, no matter what the size, how many years I I know the figure I I ascribe in my mind, how many years would would it take to turn it around to your satisfaction so that the wines really change and the vineyard almost starts to regulate itself. If you are talking about really starting, see something, I think, between two and three years. Okay. Definitely. So you so that's when you first just really start seeing the changes. Yeah. Absolutely. Thank you. Yeah. If you want to pretend to have a, you know, stable change and, you know, I appreciate the wine change the style of wine, it's it's more in between five and seven years. Yep. I I always say about seven years. Alright. Okay. That that makes sense. Yeah. Year two is the hard year because in year two, when year one, the vines have still got lots of soluble fertilizers to be like, hey, this is okay. We got this weird Sargo guys turned up and doing all this weird biodynamic shit, but we're okay. In year two, like, where's the food. Yeah. That's that's the heart. And if you get a difficult season in year two, that's the tricky moment, isn't it? Yeah. So how do you prepare for that? I mean, that you know that that's coming year two when the vines are like. They know something has changed. Do you do anything extra special in year two, or you just say, no, this is we just gotta get through. It's like it's like a it's like a drug addict that's on, in detox. So just get them through that difficult period. If you get them through that period, then we know that we've got a real chance of converting your state. Yeah. It's really dependent by the cases. But what I want to what I normally do is try to involve as much as possible people that they work with. Listen, listen guy, we are starting a process that, you know, I know a little bit better than you, but is, vital. It's a natural process. That you we can know, say in advance what's happening a couple of mountains, even one year. And try also to, to make, you know, really, really convincing the producer that even the conventional producer, they are not completely sure that the cross it will be the same every year. And that is that's the reason. That's a very realistic perception because we can see how many conventional producers reaching in the organic or even biodynamic agriculture because if you are talking with the honest conventional Iraqic culture. They they will say to you that, you know, they have a huge problem and there's no other solution because chemical, you know, they just change molecules. They just change the brand of the spray they're using, but they have, like, you took my disease resistance to to pesticides and the costs you know, increase every year. And the the people around your family or the population doesn't want that, and the market, even the restrictions about, you know, limb Using pesticides or getting stronger of it. Exactly. It's a such a huge, luckily problem for the conventional farm that they start to to thinking about that or reflecting about that. And so, and they they they switch in, you know, organic environment agriculture, honestly, also just about about for that because it's starting to to be, you know, more and more difficult. Yeah. It's it's much harder to say that Biodynamics or organics doesn't work. I mean, you know, ten, ten, twelve percent of Italy, France, Spain, Germany, Austria are all successful. Ninety percent, ninety nine percent, ninety percent, and the successful successful economically and also critically. It's very hard to say it doesn't work. Yeah. It's really hard. We can say that it's not perfect. Yeah. No system is, but No. We have, you know, some probably that we have no solution for that. But as everybody, in because I was in the other, you know, kind of agriculture with the chemical conventional or integrate, to that goal. That's an integrated bed, which is IPM, which is low input, conventional agriculture. Trying to get rid of some of the hardest sprays, Basically, you're you you get you're not smoking twenty cigarettes a day. You're down to five, but you're still smoking. Well, you just have the smoking's dangerous. Yeah. You get this. We do get such a such a bug and I have so many people writing and say, oh, yeah. We're so rude conventional farming with that Sargo guy. Anyway, so what about the elephant in the room, which is climate change, is biodynamic viticulture and agriculture a buffer against climate change, or is it just useless as, any other system. Oh, hard to say because it's a huge challenge that you have in front of us. And, you know, in twenty eighteen, once again, we are, you know, neither exceptional harvest and you're kind of, you know, season season. Yes. Right. It's been very wet so far in, we had sun and then lots and lots and lots and lots of rain, which is very unusual. But we are talking about exceptional, you know, season on the last, less pretty kind of ten years, surely within seven and eight years. Every season in inception. So what we can do about that? Don't use herbicide, don't use chemical stuff. It's a huge hub for the soil system because we don't kill organic matter. And organic matter is the only part of the soil that can absorb the water in excess and the can keep the water in case of stranded, hydro stress. So it's like a sponge, basically. So when it rains, you want the rain to stay in your vineyard and not erode your soil away. And so when it's hot, which we have these very hot periods, you have some reserves in the soil. Yeah. Yeah. You have So, you know, tough rain when when raining, and we need to prepare our soil against the erosions. It's in no way conventional agriculture has not tools to do that. The only one is organic, but, drastically better biodynamic agriculture because we have, you know, cover crops organic organic matter. We can grow on the soil with preparation. We can put on the soil with the, the five hundred with the five hundred and the compost and whatever. And so that's for sure. Don't kill the soy is the first, the first help that we can have for the climate change. And after that, we know that climate change are really powerful, and I don't know if we it will be able to manage that, but we will discover. Just to quickly remind everybody, the five hundred is the horn manure five hundred, which is horn manure, sorry cow manure, buried in a cow horn for six months. And when you spray it, you dilute that in water, dig it up, not the horn, the contents of the horn, which is the cow manure is become very earthy, and you stowage it in water and aerated a bit and you spread on the soil. Tries lots of microorganisms, and they are the ones that create tiny little holes in the soil, which makes the soil sponges, which is what Adriana says that when it does rain, we get these sort of Brazilian style downpours now rather than seeing your vineyard sort of erode away very quickly in a couple of hours. And the idea is that these, that's having this porous, living soil, is like, it's more spongy. So you get less erosion and, means you keep your soil because there is no soil shop, right? There's no like Amazon dot com. No. No worries. I'd like, I'd like seven hundred and fifty thousand tons of cholesterol place from working on TV. I was gonna say, I'm sorry, guys. We're out of Galestra. We just hammered up. I'm afraid we got it. There's a big run on Galestra recently, sir. That's alright. What are you doing in terms of pruning and canopy management? Just basic Viticulture to deal with some of these climatic extremities like either very, very hot dry weather or incredibly rainy short bursts. What are you doing in terms of pruning in in canopy management? It's a canopy management. We try to keep as much as possible the leaves in case of really, you know, hot season has This can be two thousand, two thousand seventeen. Even maybe also two thousand eighteen, we will see. And so, but aside that, we try to follow the personality of each season on the vineyard. And this is no way. And so we try to be really flexible about the canopy systems, canopy management, soil management, soil management, and so we try to don't. And I try, and there's a big challenge for my mind, first of all, because, you know, it's really easy to have some idea and keep the idea for every year. Yeah. Like a water recipe. I have. Absolutely. Yeah. And, and it's not necessary anymore. It's even dangerous. The my personal challenge is to be changing every year, so thinking different for every vineyards for every variety for every campaign management, for every year. And, yeah. That makes your job far more interesting. Now, you gotta really think, don't you? Yeah. Kind of. Yeah. Because you do have consultants that literally have one recipe. We won't name names, wine making, for example, I've worked for several very well known consultants without naming them, and it's just the same recipe of everything. And then, that was a while ago, to be honest. I'm sure things have changed, but, it's nice to hear that you're saying that you're, you're much more creative now, aren't you? You have to be much more creative a consultant? Yes. I think it's a it's a really nice part of my job to be creative. And these are kind of surviving also, Kita, that you have in your pocket because, it's no way because you need to create solutions and ideas and sharing this doubt that you have with different people in different climates in different varieties. And, if I think that yesterday was, you know, for example, the north returning Freuri, and after that, I was in bologna. And this morning, I am in Motachino. So I have to think in that every time that on this place. I'm on this place. And I'm really Do you think that you're the vineyard? Yes. I really need a high presence, you know, the the real presence, mind, body, soul and whatever, you know, to see what's happening around me when I park my car and, you know, as I say, breathe the air. And You see the birds? What's going on? Yeah. Why not? Yep. Yeah. Just little details and to help you to stay on the place, who stays on the, you know, know the people. I'm friends with most of, people that I work with, produce, and and it is also necessary because I need to be in touch with the family, with the old people called the team. I work, you know, on the same level with team and owner doesn't, you know, it's not a different company. Yeah. It's equal. Yeah. Because people I need to to feel what's happened on the mind. Those are the people that do in the because finally, sometimes, the workers doing the, you know, something, the pruning preparation, racking wine, and whatever, wasn't about selling wine. I need for the for the market people. See, what's happened when you are, when you are selling these wines? What is the perception of the clients, and that's helped me to understand what's happened on the bottle. It's good. It's good to hear also consultants. I mean, I'm, I'm, you're not the only one, but, you know, but ultimately, you don't have a job unless the wine sells. Yeah. You know, the, I mean, we always talk about environmental sustainability, but economic sustainability is is your is always your starting point. It sounds silly saying it sounds very, money driven way of thinking about things, but it's true that if if if you make a screwup in the vineyard and the soil erodes because you choose a bad cover crop, then there's no wind that year, and it's an economic disaster. Absolutely. That you have to take in charge, you know, the sustainability, as you say, in the old levels. If you see that, you know, the farmer is doing something really, really bad about economical or financial items, you should, you know, you should interact with him in order to say, listen, consider, and maybe his debt is debt is not is not correct. It's That can be quite hard though, can't it? Yeah. When it comes to budgets and money and yeah. I work with a budget of, you know, with the with farmers because in they know that I'm used to to see different with different budget. And so I need to share also that this part of the my job, but because otherwise, if you have not economical source and ability, there's no way to making, you know, wine, biodynamic, cows, and even authors. Environmental sustainability depends on economic sustainability. Absolutely, no way. No way, especially now. He's always a high pressure about that. So you're optimistic about the future, both personally and generally? Absolutely. Yes. Do you think we can change climate change around with better farming? Cause that, I mean, one of the huge contributors of greenhouse gases is farming. Yes. I think that we we have to change human brain for, you know, to work on the on the on the on the climate changing. And so I involve working on that. Yeah. Well, you're not alone. You'll struggle, but maybe if there are, you know, a few thousands. I try. I mean, I I think exactly the same as you. I think the more carbon we can put back in the soil, the more light it is that we've got a chance of addressing climate change because ultimately there are other greenhouse gases out there, but methane, for example, which is also not not a great one, but, you know, the farming community, we all have to eat. So we all depend on farming. There isn't anybody in the world, you can be whatever religion you are or color, creed, whatever. We all do two things a day. We eat and we shit, and eating is is is the way that we can what we eat and what we drink is is the way that we can maybe turn climate change around. Yeah. That's right. It is the most impacting step that we can do taking care about our, you know, nutrition Yeah. Personal nutrition because it's the the most impacting the thing that has the biggest impact. I mean, you if you don't, if you don't ever work as a consultant, again, you could easily be model. Adriana is a very tall, good looking lad. She's got, like, sun, lots of, like, you know, sun tan, not clean shaven, a lot of loose, baggy green t shirt. And, so you, you could also, like, maybe the sexy side of biodynamics, because in biodynamics, we just think of old, men with their little seedling calendars looking at the lunar cycles. And you're not. You've got a mobile phone. You even have a car. You didn't arrive on a donkey. I was quite surprised. So you're very forward thinking and very outward looking and very much connected with economics. Just want to say thanks my guest today, Adriana Zago, we could literally talk for hours, but we don't wanna bore you. We'll get you back. Maybe at next time, we can do an interview with you actually in the field. Yeah. We're not. It's really a pleasure for me. Yeah. And then we can we can, we can talk. We can get some some of the nitty gritty of the biodynamic stuff and all the weirdy bitty stuff that you do. We can smell the soy by podcast. Yeah. We'll have to get a smell on my toe. That's not too expensive. And and also microbial measure as well so we can we can see that your hormone here really does contain all the microorganisms that you said is. Adrienne Ozago, Biodynamic consultant, thanks very much for coming on the Italian wine podcast. It's been a privilege talking to you, especially for me, as a as a biodynamic Taliban. It's nice to meet a fellow biodynamic Taliban, but hope hopefully, folks, if you're listening at home, everything that Adriana has said is common sense, that's the bottom line. And if you want good wine, you need to have healthy vineyards full stop. Thanks for listening, Ciao. Thank you, Michael. Follow Italian White Podcast on Facebook and Instagram.