Ep. 2309 Understanding maturity by the glass: old whites from Italy with Cristina Mercuri DipWSET and Gill Gordon Smith IWE | wine2wine Business Forum 2024

There are so many amazing Italian whites that can age and can be very, very special premium and, you know, wines of that are perfectly pitched. They have perfect tone. They are just amazing white wines. And I want to see more of these. Me too, and I want to see more on the way we communicate Italian whites and in the quality of our Italian whites. Obviously, they are wines that can be enjoyed, youthful, but most of them can age beautifully. Official media partner, the Italian wine podcast is delighted to present a series of interviews and highlights from the twenty twenty four wine to wine business forum. Bringing together some of the most influential voices in the sector, we discussed the hottest topics facing the industry today. Don't forget to tune in every Thursday at three pm or visit Italian one podcast dot com for more information. I am delighted to present this woman team here. Christina Mercuri and Jill Gordon Smith. There are two very talented tasters educators and communicators. A great honor to have them both here, and so you guys take it away. Thank you, Sydney. Hello. Hi, Christina. How are you? It's so lovely. I'm so excited to be here and to be tasting with the amazing Christina Mercordie. She's doing great things for Italian wine, and especially for women in Italian wine. And as a judge and small wine producer and a woman in the wine industry, this is somebody that we should be modeling ourselves against. So I'm very excited, and she has chosen some amazing wines for you today. So we're going to be here talking about majority Italian white wines that you mature. And one of the questions is, why can Italian wines age and why don't you age more Italian wines? This is a good question. That's why also I decided to choose the wines we are going to taste. As a tradition, you know, Italian rats, rules with, in terms of maturity. So everybody believes also in Italy and not only abroad that the red wines from Italy can age well. And, we have this historical tradition that is connected with the most important and classic region of Italy. So which is your favorite classic region of Italy for instance. Say something. Okay. We have a lot of red wine regions, but it is white. Okay. So the reputation of Italian wines is mostly based on red wines, but actually consumer trends are demonstrating that, people enjoy more and more drinking white wines. So if you consider the numbers, the numbers of last year and this year, you see exactly that there is an overall contraction in consumptions. But then you also focus on the proportion between the resin whites and sparkling and rosé, etcetera. And you see there is a rising star that is the white wine consumption. So I think that we can focus more on white wines and when we focus on a style, a specific style, we have to talk about quality. We have to talk about commercial appeal and sometimes also about origin overall. So we know already iconic white wise. And what are some of the iconic white wines of the world that you like to drink, burgundy? Riesling? White rome. White rome? That's right. But I love wines outside of Italy, ours? Yes. Oh. Okay. So I'll just confess I'm from McLaren Valley in South Australia. So Hunter Valley, Semione. Absolutely. We don't have a lot of other great whites in Australia. But that's probably the great white that everybody knows the most apart from the ones that are swimming in the ocean. It's a shame that it's not very easy to find it in Italy. It's no. It's very hard. Oh, really? No. But we were talking about what these great whites have in common, and some of the characteristics. I know a lot of you have done WCT. And, Christina, I both teach WCT, but we don't normally talk about ones that way. But when we're looking at it, using it as a tool or as a structure. It really helps people to understand why white wines age and about the structure. So, what do they have in common? Usually, we measure the concentration so the nature of the fruit, how much is the density of the fruit in the palate. So the concentration, the precision of the fruit, we understand acidity. So we know that the structural element such as acidity is important is relevant to have wines that can age beautifully in bottle. And then we have the colors well, but it's not only alone as a sign. Sometimes also twelve point five or eleven or even nine percent IVV can be a white wine that age beautifully just think about mozzarella and we talk about residual sugar as well. We talk about the layered structure that you find in the palate. So all these elements can let you understand how much is the potential of these white wines. In some case, orc can have an influence, but it's not only this case. So it's something that is natural natural factors such as the grape itself, but also the winemaking is, sometimes a tool, no, the use of oak, the use of leaves. Lease. But also where those grapes are grown. So if you're thinking, you know, Italian whites are perfectly poised to surprise and delight. So I'd really like you to give us some examples of Italian grapes that you think could age really well. Fiano. So why in the restaurants? You always find only the very new vintages. Why many consumers are now always looking for the new release? Oh, no. Last year, why now? I don't like to drink it. Is is it something that is happening? So in your opinion, which is the reason why. Say it again? Culture. Absolutely. Yes. The reputation of Italian white wines in the history and the tradition is about a wine of production, so of quantity. So sometimes also the technology, as you said, was not perfect to produce high quality wine, not everywhere, of course. But, yes, there is the overall reputation of this lower quality in respect to bread wines. But also with accountants, accountants in wineries want you to sell wines quickly. So, necessarily, you've haven't kept those wines. You've sold them because they sell quickly and they're ones that you'll get released early like Rosay. I I had a conversation last day with a salesman and, I was telling him, oh, look, I will lead a master class on during wine to wine. We'll talk about white wines of Italy and their eligibility. Why? Do they age? And they are from wine business. No? So, so we know that we have to talk about them and we have to taste them and we have to demonstrate that ital and white wine can age. So in front of you, you have four glasses totally blind because I don't want to give any information from the level. And then we will taste them together with the Gil and I, and we will discuss about their possible origin. Mar most of all, we will discuss about their quality, their commercial appeal, and then we will have a game together. We will play together and we try to understand the state of maturity. So how all this this wine. How can it age further and how can it develop after year and years? Jill, are you ready? I'm ready. Are you ready? Let's go. Okay. So with wine number one, what we have is a little bit of a change in the color here, which will say there's some development. So, it still has some, lovely fruit notes, and it's got a real salinity about this wine, the acidity still there and has a really beautiful line in length, and it just goes on and on and on in your mouth. So, you know, this beautiful mouthfeel, it's slightly rounder and smoother, but for me, the acid is just fantastic. And also, you, gill are testing the white wine in a very smart way, but we are both publicity. Yes. So I also do I'm also doing the MW program. So I'm stage three now. So we can have a sort of comparison with the way of tasting and the reason why there is a publicity and why it is important, especially for professional like you to have at least one qualification of publicity. So, Jill, can you explain why WC is important for Italian people. Well, I think as I said, it's something it's a tool. It's something that can give you some structure and a framework to really improve and help your tasting. And then you can actually color it afterwards But if you do at least one qualification, then you have something to base it on that is international, and a qualification from WCT is recognized around the world. If you want to do judging around the world, they usually ask for something like that. And I think it just can give you some confidence It's not the be or I'm saying this very lightly. It's not the be all and end all, but it is a start. And then you can be like Christina and just keep moving on and on and on. Yes. I think that publicity will give you actually the way to communicate wine in a proper way. So in a way that also is more easy for a consumer to understand you when you talk about wine, especially if you work in a restaurant or you are, a safe person, or you want to interact with people because the way the diversity teach you how to taste and how to deliver the information from the glass is the most easy for center point, but it's very precise. So it's objective. It's technical but it's not difficult to understand. There is a concept of proximity to the consumer. Moving on to the w, we are more on a very deductive way of tasting. So we start from the evidence from the glass, such as in this case, the, as you said, that this lack of smokiness in the finish, the acidity that is very firm, but is starting to get integrated into the glass. You feel the density of the mouth. So it's the nature of the fruit is delicate, but it's very precise. It's pure. It's clean. And what about the finish? The finish is quite long, but it's always savory. So if you have to think about the shape of the wine in the mouth, I would say that this wine is very long and linear. It's like a line in the mouth. It's very. Yes. Like a highway. It's very straight. And this is a characteristic of some of the Italian white wines. And three, if I have to talk about the quality, yes, in the master wine, we use also the bleak approach that is the same that you study when you do the publicity. So it's balance, intensity, length, purity, which I don't think we talk about enough in white wines and complexity. Yep. And so in this case, we find a beautiful balance this bright firm acidity and the density of the fruit, but, did maintain the wine very slender, very high. And the finish is beautifully savory. It's very terrour driven wine in my opinion. Full of complexity, but still primary focused. And it has this tension. Tension. This beautiful tension in the wine, and it's quite a luminous wine. Yeah. It's a very gastronomic white. Absolutely. With friends, of course. I think it's quite premium in price as well, and you feel it by the glass. And, now there is the question for you. Yes. What about the maturity? The state of maturity. Please consider the color consider the integration of the acidity into the fruit, the combination of primary and their evolution. How much of the primary is turned into tertiary and the length? How does it feel, you know, the texture or evolution that you're getting in the glass here. So is it a wine that is, one to five year old? How much? How many? Okay. Is it a wine from five to ten years old? A little bit less Is it a wine from ten to fifteen years old? Too much. Okay. So I will take a note and then we will discover together. Okay. So according to the audience, My dear Gilo. The wine is one to five year old. Wow. Okay. It definitely has a sense of depth, and it's very layered. Yeah. There's some gorgeous freshness on the Oscar palette. This is so drinkable. Very clean, very pure beautiful. Number two. Number two. So what do we have here? Ah, okay. So with number two, a little bit of color change here, beautiful lift from the glass, gorgeous aromas on the palette, quite a lot of texture. Again, that savoriness, but with some florals interspersed in it as well. And it has such a chalky, beautiful texture, maybe a little bit of, Yeah. And maybe maybe? Yes, there is some. Talking about that bready notes, slight autolysis, which is what you'd get in champagne. Yeah. So maybe a little bit of she character. Lee's work here. Mhmm. So it's quite a different profile. No? Very different. This is slightly more rounder in the mouth, but still has the beautiful acidity, but it's the layers for me. They're pillowy layers in your mouth. They are two different wines with two different shade and two different shaped because number two is larger, is rounder, is very much deep. And, you have a lot of complexity and this beautiful evolution. So talking about the origin. Do you think that What's about the comparison between number one and two? Do you think that's one is from, cooler climate than the number two, De Saversa? I don't know. Let's talk. Okay. Okay. And what about the age on this What do you think? Who thinks one to five years? One to five years for number two. Okay. Five to ten. Okay. Ten to fifteen. Fifteen to twenty. Okay. So five to ten. Okay. Beautiful. Yes. Talk about one number three. Okay. Yes. So number three, you see that the color is getting gold and this is probably a sign of age because as long as the wine age in the bottle, the change of the color is evident. In the nose, the nose is quite subtle with beautiful salinity, this beautiful salty character, and then there is a lot of florality, dry flowers, white flowers, some macasha, some hay also that is very beautiful, some chamomile, and also a lot of white fruit. And and a little bit of nuts, just slightly roasted nuts. Yeah. Yeah. A little big. Mhmm. Mhmm. Mhmm. Mhmm. Mhmm. Mhmm. Mhmm. Mhmm. Mhmm. Mhmm. Mhmm. Mhmm. Mh academia. Yes. Yes. And I think this is starting to get this is starting to get this is starting to get this slightly tertiary, beautiful, tertiary, nutty evolution in the nose. Let's try to taste it. It's very spicy in the mouth. Beautiful, warm spice, gorgeous finish. Absolutely. So this kind of acidity It's a little bit more pungent with reference to wine number two that was really fresh and warm and wide in the mouth. This kind of acidity is more. Landderous pungent is is crisp. But on the other side, you still have this lot of weight, the fruit weight. A lot of fruit weight in the mouth, and and it's quite it coats your mouth at the end. So it's something like it's round on your mouth, and then you have this beautiful acidity coming through. Yes. And again, the finish has this brady character from probably Lee's aging. Yes. And, what about the commercial appeal of this one? Again, it's a very gastronomic wine. It's probably it's a serious wine with a lot of layers of interest with lots of, much arithios in the mouth. You can feel how all the elements are integrated. So it's like having, around It's a bowl in the bowl in the mouth. Yes. The alcohol is around fourteen. It's definitely that spicy warmth that you're getting. No. You fill the alcohol. You fill the density. You fill the power of this wine. And, And I think that fuller round of mouth fields, definitely due to the breakdown of the, you know, amount of proteins in the leaves. It's had some leaves work. So you can feel just like in Champagne. You're getting the Deji cells wine sits on those g cells. It protects it from oxidation, but you get this texture. And to me, this has just a beautiful nuttiness to it at the finish as well. Again, cool climate, warm climate, moderate climate, what do you feel? Someone is in Sicily. So it's warm, Mediterranean. It depends where you are in Sicily. Exactly. So you can be at nine hundred meters in, Etna, and probably there is a lot of sunshine and bright sun, but it's not really, really warm. And you're thinking about with the altitude and with the breakdown of those volcanic soils? This has a smoky ashiness to it. Yep. Yes. Altitude can actually give this precision, this definition of fruit, I think that, at least in the second and third wine, you have more of the Mediterranean character. Yes, you feel some altitude, especially one number two, with a lot of density. Probably old wise, some attach of skin contact can help, giving these textural elements. But again, all the three wines are fermented, not of the three wines, but we will talk about the white making later. Yes. But all the three wines looks very approachable and, youthful, despite they're not last year wine. Okay. So not vintage. So with this wine, where do you think? Who thinks one to five years? Five to ten? Ten to fifteen. Fifteen to twenty? We've got a split here between ten to fifteen and I think. Did somebody say fifteen years in order? Ten to fifteen. Ten to fifteen. Okay. Ready for number four? We've definitely got a little bit deeper color here, Christina. Yes. His gold is still gold medium as well if we are talking about doubleicity. But it's the lift from the glass. This is so intense. This nose is really lifted and intense and, has such a presence. Probably this one is the one that is slightly different from the rest of the flight because there is this generosity in the nose. There is this creaminess in the nose, there is the combination between peach, white flour, and, something that is more on the oak side. So you have this, the spiciness, toastiness, In the mouth, it's so round and complex and nutty, and it has those autolytic characters as well. There is this beautiful, expansive mouthfeel. It's broad. There is a lot of mid pallet weight also. So it's a maybe if I was completely blind, you are completely blind, but if I if if I was sit in my exam for instance, I would probably think about some classic region of the world because there is beautiful arc integration, do these shoes use a oak, probably a little bit of new French oak. There is a lot of, that, there is a lot of evolution. This is probably one of the most iconic wine of Italy. And Robert mentioned maybe you mentioned the Roan Valley if it was a but it is Italian. I promise you. But something like Marsan or texture. Yeah. Yeah. I think this wine is in its drinking window right now. Yep. You're seeing this when it's perfect right now. Yeah. So let's talk a little bit more on the quality and compare and contrast these four whites wines. So if I have to compare them, I would say that all these wines have a very high quality, so super premium to iconic quality. So they are very precise, very deep. They're very long in the palette. If I have to describe them more clearly, I would say that why number one has a beautiful precision and very long verticality is very, very long and savory. One number two has a beautiful balance, beautiful depth of flavors, and beautiful tension also. And so it's a little bit more expensive in the mouthfeel, but still very compact. It's granitic in the mouthfeel. And the salinity of that wine is is amazing. The same salinity you find also in one number three. So number three is a little bit subtle on the nose, but there's a lot of layers of interest in the mouth. So again, a lot of, depth and a lot of mouth filling characters, a lot of glycerin, a lot of mono proteins that give actually the mouth filler and the volume in the mouth. Open sound. And opens out. Yes. Totally. It arrives and then opens a little bit. And then we have number four that is probably outstanding as the one, number one, two, and three, but there is the evidence of the evidence of, also complexity. We have a lot of complexity a lot of, layers as well. Yes. It's more expensive, more creamy. It's a really yummy, you know, if you want to find, Yummy's definitely an NW term now. See, now it's becoming this. It's becoming that classic. Absolutely. So which one is your favorite? Who votes for one number one? You can you can have more than one. See. See. Yes. Don't be shy. You can vote for all four. Move out for number two, move out for number three. Number four? Yes. So as you can see, the the audience is quite split in all the four, but isn't important. Everybody's very confirmed on number four as well. Yes. Yes. But it confirms that the different styles of Italian white wines are very different from each other. You can have a plethora of different shades of old white wines of very high qualities. I was talking with Kiara earlier about what you could do to keep Italian whites. And I was wondering why consortiums and it's something she came up with, don't have a library, a bank because we understand people need to sell wines, but to actually keep some of these wines and age them. So in tastings like this, we can just see how amazing they are. Yeah. Would be fantastic. Can you please give, to these fantastic wines? So Should we ask what people think they are. Okay. See, before I unveil the wines, I would like to ask you now that we tasted all the four wines. The origin. I would like to see the origin which is the your idea. So why number one? Where is it from? Italy? Tic. That's your first first mark. And then to get the second, you have to say something more. At least the overall region. Say it again? Mhmm. Mhmm. Anyone else? Frulli, how many for Frulli? Again, Piedmont? Any anyone else? Suavez. How many survivors? Okay. So we are almost in the north. Okay. So everybody's sort of in the north for this one. Okay. Apart from market. Yes. Yeah. In the central. What what about number two? Where is it from? How many company? Carso. Carso. It's very specific. How many carso? Any other place in Italy? Sicily. How many Sicily? And what about the rest of you that is not voting? Why you are not voting? This is a joint class. We all have to become involved. Can it be from Latio? Why not? Mediterranean climate is warm, is driver, which is the grape. Can it be from, I don't know. Again, pull up. Can it be from Tuscany? We are guessing. Right? Yeah. Yes. But we said Campang and then we said the cars and then okay. Okay. So it's in the south. It's the south. We've got south there. Okay. What about number three? Where are we? Sicily again. How many Sicily? Quite a few. Yes. Virginia. How many, Sardinia? Campania. So we are again in the south of between companion, and then we finish with the four. Where is it from? Tuscany. How many Tuscany? Quite a few. Yeah? Very good choice. So you are in the center of Italy. Okay. See. So it's market. Okay? Okay. This is going to be a very interesting reveal. Yeah. We have something to say there. When we will discover the labels, we will have to say something about the variety. Okay. I have my notes. I come here. Now Christina's doing all the walking because I have a broken hip. I will do it for you. No problem. Ready for why number one. Mhmm. So you said it's from the north of Italy and it's the youngest. So it's one to five years old. Yes. We need a drum roll here. And this one totally surprised me. Twenty fifteen. So it's almost ten years. Yeah. And that's exactly what we want to show, Robert. Yes. Because we are in nine hundred meters of altitude. It's, Versante Souda, so we are in the southern part of Aetna, and, we do cask fermentation, very old wines from a single contrada, that is contrada Masuda, is a twelve point five percent ABV, and after the fermentation casks, it spends around nine months only. So it's, been released in twenty seventeen, seven sixteen, more or less. So we spend a lot of time in bottle after the bottling. But it just shows how beautiful and how using altitude and the right soil in the right place can just make the most amazing wines to age And for me, I think Aetna's just one of the most exciting places for whites. There's plenty of other whites in the south Yep. That I love, but this is just pretty special. There's a question. The grapes is, it is just Karicante, this one. Karicante is from one single vineyard. Then we go for number two and you said this is from the south of Italy and this is a wine that has five to ten years. So five to ten. No older than twenty fifteen. Right? Ready? Oh. Armenia. We are in the And, look at the level. The age is twenty two thousand four. Wow. Which is so wonderful. It has sixteen years on its leaves. Yes. And then two years in bottle. Yeah. A fantastic wine. Still fresh. I still get about those here. Where's the producer? Yes. He's right here. He's right here. Okay. So this is a fiano of course, and there is a slight skin contact and then there is just stainless steel. So it's there is no oak, there is protection of the fruit, and then there is the bottling very late with a long lease contact before bottling. That's why also it appears very youthful, but with a lot of density and a lot of creaminess in the mouth. Just beautiful. Yep. Number three. So you said it's from south of Italy. It's ten to fifteen years old as well. So this is Bria. This was amazing. Becky and Nata, twenty ten. Who who Gabby, Gavin, just amazing. I've never had a Garvey this old, and it is stunning wine. I really enjoyed this wine. Yep. It's nine years on Lease. It's fourteen percent ABV, so you have a lot of density. That's why you feel all this concentration and this mouth feel and this weight on the palate. And that beautiful ripe fruit, but still the acidity in the line is just amazing. They got the age. Very good. And then last but not least, you said that this wine is ten to fifteen as well, and this is from the center of Italy. This is to do two thousand and six. So again, one of the most iconic wines of Italy, we have a blend of a chardonnay and pinot blanc. We have the use of new furniture and aging, but the aging is around nine months. So one year no more, and then it's all bottle age. After bottling. So there is a lot of evolution, but you just don't feel it. You just see it's it's youthful. And this one is a two thousand six vintage. I believe also the I mean, while we're at it, The culture bella people are here too. Where are you? Yeah, darling. There you go. There you go. There you go. Okay. Okay. If if I can just say what I think this has shown this tasting with There are so many amazing Italian whites that can age and can be very, very special premium and, you know, wines of that are perfectly pitched. They have perfect tone. They are just amazing white wines. And I want to see more of these. Me too, and I want to see more on the way we communicate Italian whites and in the quality of our Italian whites. Obviously, they are wines that can be enjoyed beautiful, but most of them can age beautifully. And especially if we're going to be buying wines to put aside, these are some wines we should really consider Italian grapes. And there's, you know, around the rest of the world, there's a couple of grapes here. We have the choice of so many grapes that work really well from so many regions. We talked about this, and one issue we said was the fact they may not have room. However, just some stock, which is why I thought Kiara's idea of having consortio have a library, for their region could be a fantastic idea to just showcase what they can do. We're in trouble now. We are on time at three o'clock. So thank you very much for Let's give it up for Christina. Listen to the Italian wine podcast wherever you get your podcasts. 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