Ep 2339 A Blind Tasting Journey exploring the nature of Natural Wine with Isabelle Legeron MW and Robert Joseph | wine2wine Business Forum 2024

I think the point is I'm not here to convince you that natural wine is what you should be drinking. You know, there is a big market out there of people who are drinking natural wine and who do not need convincing. I think the takeaway for me from what the amazing work that the producers are doing, if any might be a little bit of a, you know, microbiological problem in in this particular wine. You know, we have a duty of working in the long term. You know, we are in an industry where even if you just look at the farming aspect, let alone, you know, what happens in the in the cellar, but know, for me, what's really important is that we are respectful of the environment. You know, we're ethical. We try and work by reducing obviously carbon footprint. We work on carbon sequestration, and that has a public official media partner, the Italian wine podcast is delighted to present a series of interviews and highlights from the twenty twenty four wine to wine business forum. Bringing together some of the most influential voices in the sector we discussed the hottest topics facing the industry today. Don't forget to tune in every Thursday at three pm or visit Italian One podcast dot com for more information. Today, we have a very unique opportunity with, Isabelle Le. She's an a master of wine, but I like to call her the queen bee of natural wine. And Robert Joseph, he is truly the wine warrior. And Is it worrier or warriors? Yeah. Worier. Both. You worry me. You've been worrying me the past couple of days. Okay. So I think this will be also an interesting conversation. You know, whether you are pro natural line or against natural. It doesn't matter. I want you to understand how Isabelle, her approach to tasting the behind the scenes of natural wine. Okay. You guys take it away. Thank you. And can I just kick this off before handing over to Isabel by saying, you know, I've been on we will say, I've been on a journey, as people say? I had some really, really bad experiences with natural till wine ten, fifteen years ago. I also had some really bad experiences with some sommeliers and other people who told me the wine that I wasn't enjoying was what wine was and should be and the sort of wines that I thought I liked from burgundy and elsewhere, including organic and biodynamic, were not what wine is. And there are indeed still some restaurants in Copenhagen and elsewhere, where if you're not natural, you're not on the list. However, and this is the important thing to say. I think two things. One is the quality and the the reliability of natural wine has changed hugely over the period. I taste far fewer wines with what I consider faults, and Elizabeth and I will talk about faults one way or the other, because it is a it's part of the story, if you like, but I've been far more happier to order and drink natural wine in the last five years than I was in the previous time. And secondly, and I think this is an important thing to say, is whether or not any of us want to make or drink or sell natural wine, I think that as happened with Newville cuisine in the nineteen seventies, long time before a lot of you, most of you are born, what the arrival of Newville cuisine in France was a new way of cooking that didn't involve as much flour, and butter, and cream as traditional French cooking did. And there was a lot of fun poked at Newville cuisine cooking at the time because very often there wasn't very much on the plate, and some so forth. New York cuisine was brilliant for food. So many French chefs said I don't have to use as much flour. I can do this without cream. I can do this without butter. And I think that natural wine, whatever we think of it in the general, so many producers are now using less sulfur dioxide. They're thinking about whether to find or not. They're thinking about filtering. All sorts of thought processes have been kicked off by the natural wine movement. So I I'm gonna put that on the table to start with, and I'm now gonna hand over to Isabelle, who is, as CVstra said, the queen bee. Okay. Well, thank you for spending this next few minutes, with with me with us. I've picked three wines that I thought would be an interesting, you know, conversation sort of topic. I wanted to maybe discuss some elements of the wines. They are all hundred percent organic or biodynamic and made completely without any sulfites throughout the winemaking process. Like I said, I've chosen wines because they all have a very strong identity for certain reasons, and and I just wanted to have a chat with you. You know, I haven't chosen necessarily the easiest flight and as you know, Robert mentioned brings the food on the table, you know, for me context is really important, which is why I I don't really spend a lot of time with competitions anymore or because I think removing wines from the culture where they're from or from the context in which they're meant to be enjoyed is you know, is difficult. So let's let's Can I can I just before we start tasting just quick question? Yes. Just to to to raise if I come to your raw wine fairs at which you're doing eight around the world, there are going to be wines and there are for natural wines. There are wines there that have got some so2. So these wines have zero so2, but for you, in terms of the baseline, can you just, before we kick off, to define what a natural wine is? Yeah. Sure. I mean, so in the context of the fact, we have on our books, I would say, but turn off two and a half thousand growers. And of which, any given year, we have six, seven hundred growers who will take part in in one of our our events. You know, we do them in Japan, Germany, France, Copenhagen, and so on, but the very beginning, I was clear that I wanted to have growers who are completely natural, so who add zero sulfites, but also growers who add up to fifty parts per million during the winemaking process, who have a total on analysis of fifty PPM to give you some context in organic legislation allows up to a hundred and fifty PPM for white wine and a hundred milligram per liter for red wine total. For me, a natural wine is basically a wine that is alive. You know, it's a wine that has been allowed to let the microbiology exist throughout the farming and the winemaking process. So I talk about zero sulfites. I did up to twenty, thirty parts per million for me. I still consider that as a wine that has microbiology, even up to fifty parts per million. So at the fair, people who want to show their wines cannot have more than fifty PPM, total sulfites. It just has to be organic. So so, yes, so it has to be organically biodynamic. Certified or not certified. It has to be fermented naturally on their own East population spontaneous. Hand picked? Yes. Hand harvested and then some finding, but we declare what it is, and that's it. I know filtering. Some filtering, but no sterile filtration. Okay. And in terms of equipment, do you own restrictions on equipment? No. I mean, we say, you know, obviously, no reverse osmosis, no harsh treatment, no heat treatment, and so on. So, yeah, so as long as the wine is basically, you know, the microbiology from the vineyard is, carried through the wine, and then I test all the wines. So we have a lot of people trying to get who want to come to the fairs and then I test all the wines. So the reason I just wanted to ask I think natural wine is not what a lot of people think it is. I think a lot of people think it's absolutely zero self worth. It's absolutely I think it's, as you're saying, it's to do with a life in the wine. More than not doing this or not doing that. There is some pragmatism in your way of looking at it. Yes. For me, as long as the wine is alive and it is a translation of the terroir, but also the most important is the farming. I mean, you cannot make a natural wine if you have deadlines or if there's communication between the vine and, you know, the soil. So the farming is extremely important. So these three wines, you chose? Yep. So I picked those three wines. They are growers who would come, you know, to a fair. And then just to give you some context, you know, when I receive samples, So when people want to come to a fair, a, they have to know somebody in the community who can vouch for the vineyard, and then they have to fill in a questionnaire, give us analysis, and then I test the wines. And the way I test wine now is What's important for me is I tell the story, you know, if it's just made on a large scale, these are not temperature controlled at all. So the fermentation, you know, can be between twenty five and thirty, degrees. Is the wine telling me a story can I taste that there is work going on in the vineyard? Is there texture complexity? You know, maybe sometimes it's a bit imperfect. And to me, that's okay. It's a togetherness. It's the vineyard and then what's going on in the cellar. Now would you like to to taste. All three and then No. I think it's just one. I think One at a time. Or we can I mean, yeah, if we we can taste, I can give you a little bit of background on each wine as we taste them? Shall we do it blind to start with and see what people think about it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So here we are, we're not Austria. We're in, the latest vintage. So we have, a fairly elegant, I would say, you know, light vintage. The one is ten and a half percent alcohol. We have a third of the grapes were macerated for ten days and then blended with two thirds with no skin contact and all in oak. So fermentation in very large barrels and then the the maturation in used. Okay. So Isabelle, did this wine remain on its lees for a long time? Is there a lot of lees contact? There is a little bit of lees. Yes. It's actually one of the things I find in good natural wine. If you're not using s o two, the lees can be a very useful way of keeping the wine fresh. Yeah. And similarly, I think, I mean, interesting this winery uses the same recipe to make all their wines. So basically, whether it's a white or rose or red, They do, you know, a certain percentage of direct pressing, even on the red wines, and then a small percentage of skin contact. So all the wines are actually really, I would say elegant and light. I think the skin contact has been a tool used you know, in recent years because when you do skin contact, you extract really useful antioxidants, you extract oils. It acts as a preservative. So I think skin contact is a very useful tool in the natural, you know, in the natural winemaking process. And in a way, it makes sense because, you know, a lot of the goodness is in the skin, so and sometimes the stem, and this is just skin. So the idea is also to use, I think, some skin contact to help with preservation because you don't use sulfites. And, you know, this is a journey. I mean, they started in two thousand and seven. It's a grue nerve at Lina and, welsh whistling blend. They're fully biodynamic demeter certified. And for them, it's been a journey, and I think that's what's really important. You don't start making, you know, natural wine from one day to another another day. You know, it's a really lengthy process that involves meticulous work in the vineyard, which is why organic Viticulture or biodynamic permaculture, which generative, you know, the latest sort of maybe buzzword. But I think that's what's really important is the more you work in the vineyard, the easier it gets to make wine like this because the grape has to be full of life. You know, it's got to be really resistant. It's got to be really robust in order to be able to withstand high temperature in terms of fermentation, but also the, you know, the oxidation process during the fermentation process and then go back to something like this. And these wines have been tasting them for years, and they really age beautifully. So can I ask in the room? We've got a microphone here Can I have some comments from the room, some some tasters? I think it's delicious. I love the texture above everything, and I wonder, can you talk a little bit about texture in natural wine? How important that is? And I always think texture is everything in a natural wine. Really, it's far more important than the fruit. And I see that in this one. Yeah. I think that's a great point, to be honest. I think texture is important in wines. I think the problem is we've become so focused on, you know, aromatics that we've really forgotten about the weight fields in the palette. And what I love about natural wine particularly, you know, given there's no there's no finding, there's no filtering. You have that lovely grip. I mean, it obviously is gonna come from a little bit of skin contact, you know, a third of it, but still, you know, there is that tension, there is that texture in the wine, and a lot of I mean, I would say, you know, well made net for wine that reflect an idea of the terroir will have that texture. And I think that's really important. And for me, I taste for texture. So when I taste, I'm actually not really that worried about the aromatics. I barely write them down, but what I want is when I taste the wine is is I want it to be all over my palette. I want that sensation of detail everywhere. I don't want to feel the oak. I want to feel the fruit tannin or the fruit texture from the skin in in in this case. But I want the wine to be everywhere, you know, and I think that's actually really quite rare, you know, very often. You taste wine and there's that doughnut or it's short or it doesn't really give you any sensation or any pleasure. And for me, it's really about that concentration and that detail of aromatics in the palette, including the texture. Yeah. I think this is a really, it's a very nice example. You've got that limey character that sort of grue no, and I don't know what the percentage is of grue no, Veltery's thing. Yeah. I I do know. But all I know is I think it's a very well put together wine. And the acidity, which is there, I think, is very much married into the wine. It's gonna be a lovely freshness that I think is is very impressive. I agree with you, by the way, entirely, about we think very often too much about the way things smell and less about the richness in the palette and on the finish. And this is really young. I mean, it's it's like it's a latest vintage just being released. It's still very much on the primary, you know, sort of mortars, all that greenery, green notes slime, and so on a very mineral, it's seven and a half percent. Like I said, you know, it was harvested, because it the grapes were ripe. They do the harvest by hand at night at three o'clock in the morning so that when the grapes come in, there's no start of the fermentation until much later. And these wines from experience really evolved beautifully. A. This, you can leave them open in the bottle for a long time, and this has got a amazing longevity and freshness and purity. But like I said, you know, when they first started making that, you know, completely sulfite free wines, it was touch and go, and it's been an adventure that's been going on for a long time because you can't overnight decide, okay, I'm I'm gonna start making sulfite free wines, which is why for me, natural wine is, you know, of course sulfur is in sulfites are important part of the story, but it's a lot of farming. You have to have impeccable farming. Of course, you have to have impeccable winemaking in the winery. You don't have any tools. You don't have you don't use sulfites, you know, you you don't have any tools. If there is any issues, you have to to make sure that whatever your harvest is impeccable quality. So that it's it's very, very tough, and you have to do a very tough selection in the vineyard, but everything happens in the vineyard. And once you have your vines, which communicates with the soil and gets all the nutrients, and then you are able to get amazing quality in your grapes, then then you can do something like this. So Let's move on to Yeah. Let's move on to number two. Number two, which I think the color is possibly telling us something before we start. Yeah. So here, slightly more, you know, divisive. You know, there is VA there. So it'd be interesting to discuss that. But we are at five days maceration. It's not actually a super extended, skin contact. We're in Slovenia in the cast, limestone plateau. Five day skin contact. We're in twenty twenty. Which is also the current release. So the wine undergoes, like I said, five days skin contact just on the skins, no stem, in oak, and then stays in an oak barrel for three years until it's bottled and released you know, onto the market. So what they do is they are very conscious of making sure that the wines is fully stable before it's released, which I think is, you know, we talked about some faults and sometimes you see a lot of wines with maybe mouseyness like, a slight instability, and I think often it's because the wine is released, you know, too soon. The thing is when you work naturally, you do need a lot of lot of time for for the microbiology to do its work and for the wine to do But can I ask you if I've got a wine, if you're looking in Transley conventional, if I've got a wine with VA, my biggest worry is the VA gets worse? And if I haven't filtered it, if I've got it in a bottle with closure, which isn't absolute. Potentially, I'm going to get more VA in six months or a year. And that's the question of how much sulfur you're adding to prevent that. If we've got a wine with no sulfid oxide and we have this level of VA now, how confident are you that will remain at that level over the next year, two, three, four years, or should we be drinking it now? No. I think from experience of taking this producer over the course of many years, other producers who bottle with, VA, which is, you know, on the high side, from a, you know, conventional perspective. For me, the VA has, you know, always under control and not really got that, you know, that much worse. I think the thing to say about this for me, so on the palette, you know, I actually find the VM. There's a little bit of residual sugar left in the wine, but I think it's two or three grams. But the VA is point seven, actually, so it's, you know, not that high. For me, it's in balance with the wine. So when you taste the wine, I think initially on the on the nose, you you get the VA, but on the palette, I think the wine is really well integrated. I think there's enough concentration. There's enough going on in the wine to sort of like absorb and and make the VA more of a complexing agent that anything that takes away personally. And I think when you are in the context of also eating, This is a brilliant wine to do foot pairing because it's, you know, it's complex. It's it requires I think it requires to sit down. It requires to just, you know, eat with it. It's not necessarily something. The wine to have, although, I'd be very happy to have it as an apparel somewhere, but it's you know, it's it's a wine that requires a little bit of food, you know, to go with it. And it's Vitoska. And the reason I picked Vitoska is, and this and yes, okay. There is, you know, the VA can be considered a little bit on the high side personally. I think it it works, is because we see a lot of skin contact. And I think people have gone crazy with orange wine, because, you know, it's new, it sells, you know, in the natural wine environment. It's a great tool because it means that you can actually you know, compensate the fact that you're not using sulfites, but, you know, it's very tricky for me anyway. When I taste a very good orange wine, it is actually not that often because we also have the tendency to pick when it's not really ripe because we're worried about alcohol levels. So you've got this kind of, like, problem of wanting to use the skins, but you don't want to pick when it's too ripe because you don't want the alcohol. You want the freshness because everything is about crunch, everything is about light, body, light, alcohol, you know, these days. And I think it's important not to be too scared of alcohol. But I think Vitavskar works really well as a macerated wine. And here, even though you do have this slight VA, you know, there's no note of cognac or caramel or, you know, which are notes that you get so often in skin contacts. I think when it's for me when it's done for too long or all the grapes are not quite the best material. Whereas here, I think you get the nice tension, the nice, anise, you know, and the texture from the skin is interesting. It's interestingly lifted on the finish. I think that's and that comes partly from the VA obviously, but it's a very interesting in terms of if you think about it in food matching or anything else you're doing, it really does have that brightness there. Quick question. In terms of natural wine making, one of the things I that has struck communication. It's where people are making wines like this, not this one who are putting it into a clear glass bottle, and often with a cork, not necessarily always the best cork. To me, if you're not using sulfur, the outside, doesn't it make sense to really on the side of dark glass and whether it's crew cats or DM, but a closure that you know is going to keep your wine protected from oxygen. I mean clear glass is a great topic. I don't think it's actually a topic for the natural wine world know, we should never be using clear glass to bottle wine. I mean, who, you know, I know it's instagramable. It looks beautiful, you know, but you you can't make you don't use recycling glass to make clear glass. So, you know, this is one of my big battle at the moment, you know, with a lot of the growers I work with, but the argument is if you bottle it under clear glass, unfortunately, you're likely to sell ten times as many as many bottles as you are if you're under a green glass. So that is something for all of you out there to start educating the public that we must stop using clear glass because it's what sells, but, you know, who wants to ring a rosé in a dark bottle. I I mean, I I get it, but, you know, the payoff, you know, the the consequence of of that action is actually huge plus plus the cost of the clear glass plus the shortage of clear glass, but anyway, Look, I think it's a bit of a misconception to say that natural wine is a lot more fragile than conventional wine. You know, wine made without sulfites travels really well. I mean, yes, you have to be a little bit more careful along the way, but To be honest, if you're in the fine wine business, you know, you have to take a little bit of care onto, you know, how bottles are shipped. You know, I do events this year. I'm about to fly to New York in in two days, but, you know, we did an event in Japan. We're in Toronto, Montreal, you know, the bottles are shipped. And they always get I've never really had a bad experience. So I think, you know, the this is but that's what's really amazing about natural wine is that, you know, it's alive. You know, there is a life there and talk about food and we, you know, it's all about kombucha and and all that stuff. And that's what's beautiful about natural wine is it it's alive. So it is really resistant. You know, when you say that this wine, the first wine was fermented at thirty degrees, you know, like in modern winemaking, you know, everybody's trying to keep the fermentation, you know, temperature super low to to keep the aromatic, the crispness of the wine. I mean, there's nothing non aromatic or uncrisp about this wine, but because there's so much going on, you know, in the juice, so much diversity of different bacteria and different yeast that they have You know, they can defend themselves. It's just like, you know, I think we underestimate the ability of these wines to, I think looking at time, we can move on to the the third one while we're here. Yeah. Sure. So the third one is probably gonna be another one of, you know, it's quite similar to the second one. I'll I'll let you taste it. In fairness, it's it's changed a bit in the glass. It's a bit mousey now. So here we are in, Chile. We're in Pice. So Pice is the grape variety in twenty twenty. We're in Mowle in Cauquenes. So this is completely solved by freebie identification from grapes that are one hundred and fifty years old, ungrafted vines on volcanic soil and decomposed granite. It's really beautiful, old vines, and very light, and then aging oak before release twenty twenty. And this is sort of, you know, one one of the last vintages of this particular project. So Isabelle, you and I have had this discussion before. You've seen mouse go away. Now Yep. Essentially, there is some mouse in this. If I had one bottle of this, I'd be thinking, well, is the next bottle gonna be the same? Why would it not be the same. And are you saying to me, well, actually put that wine away for x time and then come back to it, and that mouse will have reduced? Is that I mean, very often I've had that experience, I have to say in the the last time I tasted this wine was twelve months ago, and I picked this wine for my wine club. I used to have a wine club in the US. And when I buy wine for the wine club, I typically taste everything, and then I leave everything open, and I taste it the next day, and I do that over a week. And this wine showed no sign of mouseyness, which is, you know, why I picked it in this occasion. So I think now I I couldn't for this wine, I probably would say to you. I don't think so. I think it's, you know, It is what it is. It is what it is what it is. Yeah. Okay. It is a shame because when you first open it, it's like, you know, there is this VA and it's over the one. Well, I think it's one point four grams. But, you know, the one is really intense, smoky. It's got beautiful aromatics, and the VA works, you know, with with this wine. But, yeah, it's it's mousey for sure. We've had two of the faults that are associated sometimes with with natural wines. One is obviously VA, the other is mouse. I guess we can talk about things like Brett, and return on my seas. And I heard this conversation with Alice firing, the other queen of the natural wine world. And her feeling was we focused far too much on faults. We should actually look at the wine in the round and she said to me, look at that woman who's got a scar in her face, the scar makes her face more beautiful, and I said actually if you ask the woman, I'm not sure she wants the scar on her face, but I'm interested to know how you, after now twenty years, one more, I think, of how do you see faults in the context? Well, quote unquote faults in the context of, natural white? I mean, I think a fault is a fault. I mean, I'm not gonna stand here and say to you there's no malziness here. If I was in a restaurant and I got this, I'd be disappointed. For sure, and I would say something. I think for me, Mousiness is probably the As you said, if you find sometimes, one like this in the white bar, you said you will be disappointed. A lot of time happen this And the answer from, the wine owner is because it's natural. Yeah. I think that's the norma has changed me with other things. But for them, because it's natural, it's the answer of course. Yeah. I think that's wrong. I mean, we're in the service industry and you come and you'll come to enjoy a bottle of wine, you know, they should have done their job and picked a wine that was for me clean, you know, for sure. Just one thing. What about the service temperature of this kind of wine? So, you know, I asked for the, the red to be served at sixteen, fifteen sixteen because, you know, the, it's this is fifteen percent alcohol. So, you know, the alcohol is there. Otherwise, I mean, for me, like, something like ten, eleven degrees on these wines is ten, twelve degrees. Yeah. Or even even warmer. Yes. But then I I wasn't sure of, you know, of the temperature of the room, but even even warmer. I think ten, twelve is a good temperature for white or bubbles in general, but I don't like the white to be too cold. So Isabel and I think we're going to be in one of the rooms to do a session afterwards, but you won't all get into that room and, a, and b, you've got the wines in front of you. This is your opportunity to ask Isabelle a question that you might not get a chance to do after it's certainly not with the white. Yeah. But I just wanted to address sorry. I just wanted to finish the conversation. I'm sorry, Robert, on the last one and on on on mouseyness because, you know, no one wants to make mousey wine. You know, I think the issue often is that, which is not the case in this because actually it was released. I think the case is probably, you know, high pH and the alcohol, but no one wants to make a wine with mouse. Often though there is the pressure of the market where the wine has to be released because you have a cash co issue and and your winery and then the wine is sort of ready. And then the market is asking for your wine, and you need the money. And for me, I prefer to see a bit of sulfites on the wine. If you are gonna be releasing it maybe, you know, within a year, maybe use sulfites during the winemaking process, or at least you have a wine which is stable, I think that's our responsibility is to serve wine, which is ready, or wait. Like, in in the case of the Tuftsa, they wait three years until they feel that the wine is ready. So I think, you know, it's important that we don't, you know, like in your experience, as for me that's wrong, you know, I think you call a cat a cat, you know, otherwise, who are we, how are we kidding, and we have to progress. But I think in fairness, it's in my experience, from what I taste, and I taste a lot of wine every day is less and less I see an issue of mouse, VA for me you know, in in these two wines, I'm very happy with it. I wish it was maybe on the slightly lower side, but I think with food, and I think there's a context in which that those wines would shine. Bread, I think to some extent, but Brett is not, exclusively an issue with with natural wine, and you're good to boil down your own. Don't know. It's about if we're not using sulfur and we're not filtering the danger potentially of a reckoning worse in that bottle is more Maybe, but, you know, Brett is always present everywhere. So, you know, you're in the vineyard. If you actually grab a sample of the population, you'll see Brett, you know, in the vineyard. It's how you handle that as it comes in, but I think Brett to some extent, if it's just a little bit, can also be part of the terroir story. You know, the same as yeast can be part of terroir of a wine. That's how you work. Andrea? I'm just very curious how many people in the audience cannot taste the mouseiness because it's estimated about forty percent of the population is genetically not able to taste that. So it's it's really interesting to have a large group of people to see. We trained ourselves to taste it because we recognize that blindness in our kind of tasting ability, but It's a quick show of hands. How many people in the room can have identified that character we call mouse in us in the red wine? So you're Andrea, you're making a very good point. It's it's not half the room. How many people in the room are finding something in this wine? Which is not the volatile institution that they're not feeling apart from the volatile city that they're not happy with. There's a character in the wine. So And something you don't take you don't smell that only tastes You you don't feel it on the nose, but only on the palate. Okay. I think last time, hands for people who found something that they didn't like or mouse or opportunities nice. It's still not really it's maybe it is sixty percent. It's not the whole room. So I think I mean, did anybody actually enjoy the the the last one? But I think we also need to make that point that not everybody spots Ritonomyces in the same way, not everybody spots TCA in the same way. We are, I think Yes. I mean, I think, look, the the point if I change this, we're we're gonna wrap up, I mean, and it'd be great to take more questions. I think the point is I'm not here to convince you that natural wine is what you should be drinking. You know, there is a big market out there of people who are drinking natural for wine and who do not need convincing. I think the takeaway for me from what the amazing work that the producers are doing even if there might be a little bit of a, you know, microbiological problem in in this particular wine. You know, we have a duty of working in the long term you know, we are in an industry where even if you just look at the farming aspect, let alone, you know, what happens in the in the cellar. But, you know, for me, what's really important is that we are respectful of the environment you know, we're ethical. We try and work by reducing, obviously, carbon footprint. We work on carbon sequestration, and that has a public. You know, when we talk about people not being able to sell wine anymore that the industry is basically in difficulty and so on, you know, some people are still drinking wine and the young people are drinking natural wine because it, you know, they like the ethics. They like that it's a small small business. You know, there's transparency. We're not trying to hide, you know, anything. Or and I think that's actually valuable. I think it's also I I will say certainly in France, and this is the last I have seen more people a lot of people are drinking wine in France where wine consumption has fallen off a cliff. I've seen young people who have got into wine or into wine via natural wine, who might not be drinking wine at all. So I think it's actually been a positive for those people. Let me just give you very quickly what the wines are. Yep. So we have the first one was Guutogao in Gogen Land twenty twenty three, Theodore. Number two is Chotar, the Vidofscar twenty twenty from Suvigna. And the last one is Mission El Pisado in Chile, which is the project from Elena pantaleoni in the Mowle. In Calcanes in this twenty twenty. Thank you very much, Isabelle. Thank you. Listen to the Italian wine podcast wherever you get your podcasts. We're on SoundCloud, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, email, IFM, and more. Don't forget to subscribe and rate the show. 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