Ep. 18 Monty Waldin interviews Deborah Brenner of Women of the Vine and Spirits | Italian Wine Personalities

Italian wine podcast. Chinching with Italian wine people. Thanks for tuning in to the Italian wine podcast with me Monty Walden. Today's guest is Deborah Abrena. Deborah is the founder and president of an organization called Women of The Vine and spirits. Deborah welcome. Thank you. Thank you for having me today. What is women of the Vine spirits and why did you create it? Women of the Vine spirits is the first trade alliance devoted to advancing women in the alcohol beverage industry. Until now there has never been an organization or a forum for women to come together. So we're really filling a void. I mean, was there some a deeper motivation behind that as well? And was there some was some event that you saw and you thought, hang on a second, we're getting a raw deal in the beverage industry? Well, actually, it's been a long time coming. So I like to say, you know, how to become an overnight success in just ten years because it has been a ten year journey. Prior to me going into the wine industry, I worked in the field of technology and high end technology It was in the late eighties. And so it was a very male dominated industry. When I got disenchanted in my corporate world, I wanted to pursue my passion in wine. And unbeknownst to me, I found out that it was very male dominated, and many of the wonderful wines around the world that I've enjoyed, I found out that there were women behind those labels, and that really intrigued me. So I started doing research, and, I ended up writing a book called Women of The Vine. Inside the world of Women that make taste and enjoy wine, and it got published. And that was the catalyst to set me on my journey because I wanted to write the stories of the women that trailblazed, in the industry that were very under recognized in the wine field. So what sort of battles were they having to fight then to get to the top? Well, you know, the battles are different depending on where the women are. You know, I started in the US. So the US is New World. The battles are quite and also the longevity, the history, and the founders are very different. Compared to Europe. Absolutely. So give me an example. So in the US, you know, we came out of a very unusual situation with prohibition, which nobody else's experience, and that led to very interesting laws. And so the male domination that exists in America is quite different. It is still very much family legacy that have come down through the wine industry, but more and more entrepreneurs, more new people have come into the industry. So the women there have faced battles more in getting education, getting equal opportunity to get into the sellers. But with women of the vine in spirits, what makes us unique is it's open to everybody. So it's not just producers or winemakers. It's everybody that takes to get the grapes from the vineyard onto the shelf. There could be, sir, women working in wine shops and restaurants and wine bars, on the production side as well as you said. Absolutely. So when we started the organization, we realized that women needed to support each other. And to your question before, the women in Europe, they faced very different battles. Most of them is dealing with succession, you know, families session. But isn't in in in Europe, you've got, you know, inheritance rights and say France and Italy, for example, do divide up when they, you know, the the the head of the family winery dies. It does get evenly divided up between the kids. And if there are, you know, three girls and three boys, then they each get a fair share. Right? Well, I I mean, we're we're seeing that. I mean, obviously, you can see, a lot of wonderful, wonderful women in Europe that are are running the producers, but what women in the vine and spirits is that we've created an organization to support throughout the entire system from importers and exporters to sales, finance operations. Even, we have women in Cooper that are working with us. Cooper is barrels and oak barrels and things like that. Yeah. So, you know, making barrels. And we've extended from wine into spirits. So we're also working. Like, for example, Stephanie McCloud is on her advisory board for Europe, and she's the first woman at doers after one hundred and sixty years, first female master blender. But, yes, the the challenges are different. Okay. I mean, if we were talking about motor racing today, a motor racing stereotype might be all men are better drivers than women, right? And in wine, it's accepted that women are better tastier than men, although only thirty three percent of mass of wine at the moment are female. So where are we going wrong? A lot of that is again just encouraging women to go into the field. And that's a big part of what we are doing as as an organization. So Is that psychological, you mean? You you think that there's this bar there, women who think, well, I'm never gonna the top so why should I bother trying? I think a lot of it is that they haven't had role models. It's fairly new to see that women are taking this role and that is giving them the encouragement. So even like the family legacies that we're seeing here. I mean, the, you know, the Antonori family, you know, Alegreens, you see these women that running them, for the first time, the next generation has role models. And I think that is giving them the opportunity. We're seeing more and more women enrolling, and we're seeing them pass you know, the master of wine and and actually taking those positions now. But it's been a long time coming. So what what is the future for you? What are where are you gonna focus your efforts? I mean, specifically? Well, we started in the US and we held our first global symposium in two thousand fifteen in March. And we had hoped for two hundred and fifty people maybe to show up and we sold out at five hundred. This past March, we just held our third annual global symposium and we sold out in twenty four hours at seven hundred people. So we're here today at Van Italy. We'll be announcing our expansion into Europe because many of the producers that we're working with, many of the companies have producers here in Europe. And so where where we wanna see this is to really create a global community. The next generation in the generation today, it is a global economy. So things are really changing the way that we're doing business. I mean, I hate to see my age because when I started, there was pre internet. It's a very competitive business and there are more and more wines. The younger generation, the millennials, they're very adventurous. So they're trying wines from regions that many of us didn't even consider as a wine growing region. So that's putting a lot of pressure on on existing wineries to have to sell. So women in the vine and spirits is really there to support the community as a whole. It's interesting you talk about millennials, which is the which are the younger consumers. So what you're saying is they're not necessarily driven just by, say, price or or labeling. They want the backstory and want to know that, there's some kind of equality behind the wine. Is that what you're saying? Oh, absolutely. The millennials what's driving them is very, very different. And it's exciting because there's opportunity, but what we need to do is to work together to show how to capture that audience. For example, because they grew up with the world at their fingertips, anywhere, anytime with their phones, they think nothing. They're traveling more than than our families and generations. So to explore wines from Slovakia from Moldova from, you know, all parts of the world was never something that people had to do. So we're seeing they're also not as loyal to brands because they're very adventurous. But when you say Monty about the backstory, that's where women, the vine and spirits, I think, really excels, because we do have some incredible women, and the stories is what resonates not just with the millennials, but I think with buyers overall. And in America, when you look at statistics of seventy one percent of all retail wine purchases made by women. Fifty seven percent of all wine purchases on premise in restaurants or bars are made by women, then wouldn't it be fair since women in America are certainly looking for equality and it's a very big topic to wanna celebrate and embrace the women behind these labels. It's a lot of what we talk about. Share your story. Get out there. It really is quite a compelling selling factor too. Okay. In terms of obviously working in the beverage industry does pose health risks, obviously alcohol is a an addictive, substance. How are women going to be successful in quotes, a man's world where sometimes drinking and staying up late and being the tough guy is seen as a a badge of honor. How are women gonna cope with that and then try and change that culture of excess if you want to call it that? You know, we just had our conference, four weeks ago in Napa, and that very subject came up. So it is a subject that really we're talking about. Because I love how you say a badge of honors. We joked about it, like putting your boots on and having to get out there and stay up the night because if you're gonna call in a night too early, you're considered a little bit of a a a worse thing. You can't really hang out. So it is an issue, but where women can support each other is, again, giving ourselves permission to be able to change some of that. The other thing I think is that we're very savvy women in the industry We understand how to pace ourselves. We also understand lower alcohol levels, I think in America. We struggle a little bit more with that than in Europe. Why? The alcohol content of a lot of the, beverages are much higher. The wine alcohol content where table wine in Europe is lower. When I'm out there talking to women, I'm always kind of saying if you're in a social setting or business setting, you know, if you go with something more sparkling, something of a little lower alcohol content, you'll be able to hang and and and support, but it is an issue. So do you think, I mean, you know, if we were having it as I said, there's a business lunch and say you're the only woman at the table at a business lunch and you know you've got like eight or nine hours of work still to do during the day, plus you gotta get through lunch. And you're saying that if you say made a spritzer out of your the glass, someone adds some fizzy water to it, is that gonna be a negative, oh, you know, typical woman can't handle her drink? Well, actually, it's a really sensible thing to do. Right? It is a very sensible thing to do, but I think And men won't admit that it's a sensible thing to do. Because they're men, right? I think there there are sensitive issues all the time you bring that up. I would personally say that if I was there at lunch, I wouldn't add any fizzy water only because we may be there to really taste the wine. At that time, I'd say, sip it more slowly. You if you are in a tasting situation, then you can spit certainly. But if you are at a lunch in a social situation, then you just have to take it a little bit slower. But I have to say I do know a lot of women that can quite drink some men under the table too because they can hold it. But it is a sensitive issue because, there is a bit of that that, like you say, the boys club and having to hang with them, but I think savvy women in business, that's that's what we do. We we know our limits and we can work around them. But I think the real thing that we're doing is that we're excelling in the business because diversity in the wine industry and in spirits overall, when you look at the consumer base. Doesn't it make sense then that we have diversity and leadership? Because if we're trying to expand our businesses, then diversity and leads to innovation, it leads to creativity. Then most importantly, it leads to a greater return on investment. It's going to be sure bottom line because of the fact that we're looking at the consumer. So that I think is the most important thing that we try to bring to the table. White, the wine industry, generally speaking, is a hideously white industry, right, in terms of in terms of skin color, in terms of, in terms of demographic, How's that? I think overall because it stems from the original laws. I mean, we're women weren't allowed to drink. You go back to the mesopotamia days. You go back to when this all started. Right? If you look historically, and then you you go into it where the only women that were drinking were either in brothels or or other things. So historically women also were not allowed to own land. And that, to your point, also leads into, you know, not just gender, but also go ethnic as well because of all of those, things that were in place. Yeah, ethnic, disempowerment and gender disempowerment. So, again, how so are you also focused on, maybe not landlords and and things like that, but, I mean, how are Again, how can you aid the transition if you like a fair way, that men and women can share both the responsibility and the burden of work as well as the success and financial success that, good work brings. How can you do that? I think the most important thing that we're doing is that we're coming together as a group. When you come together and you support each other and especially now that we're doing it globally, we're sharing best practices That I think is the number one thing to start any kind of a movement, to start any kind of change, is first we have to acknowledge it. Right? We have to we have to say there is an issue. Then we have to look at what those issues are. And culturally, we have to look at the differences. Because not one she was gonna fit all. So we really need to look at that. So for example, we had Doctor. Mackie Mandela come and and and join us last month, and she came from South Africa and she's Nelson's oldest daughter who started house of Mandela wines. And it's a real issue, especially for black women in South Africa to own, a winery. She came and was seated alongside Mara Lisa Alagini and then seated alongside Susanna Balboa from Argentina, and that was remarkable. Because to see that is what women in the vine and spirits I think is is bringing together for the very first time. And and I mean, Susanna Balbo, for example, is, has had an incredible career of, you know, her early, Korean wine was was was really difficult, right? And she bounced back from something that not many people would bounce back from is now regarded as one of Argentina's leading producers, both in terms of quality and also for her story, her courage in in not letting, the industry grind her down so to speak. Absolutely. And I think sharing those stories you know, amongst each other is really probably the most important thing. I know Italy has, has a wonderful group called Donnie Delvino, and it's a it's a great group of women. Now what we wanna do is we wanna embrace that and we wanna take it worldwide. So we can learn from others. So for example, I was speaking to Elena Walsh yesterday here from Italy, and we were talking succession because her daughter is now getting involved. And that and Susanna Babo came with her daughter Anna. So Anna is now starting to be groomed to take the reins for Susanna as Susanna's going into the next generation. I think that's really exciting. And it's something we just touched on very briefly yesterday when we we met for the very first time. Susan Sokoblaster, who pioneered in in Pina noir in Oregon, she just did her succession plan to co CEOs of her daughter and her son. That's really remarkable. So being able to say to someone like Elena, you know, maybe you wanna speak to some of them I think that's the exciting thing of women of the vine and spirits. And women, we do things, differently. We approach things differently. So it's really nice for the very first time that we're building a community that we can support each other. And simultaneously, what we really need to do is we have the most incredible women and some of the leading positions today, which is wonderful. So the first thing that I had to do before I could even think of coming to Europe because you know, I started in the States was to form a European advisory board. So I am honored to have Mara Lisa Allegrini. We have Stevie Kim. We have Jansens Robinson on our board. We have Maggie Amriquez, President CEO of House of Krugge, Stephanie McCloud from Duers, and Beatrice Quantro. That is our board right now, which is a remarkable. So we're really looking at the cultural differences. We're looking at the needs, and then we're going to look at the programs in education, and we also form the Women of the Vine spirits Foundation Foundation. So we have a scholarship fund that is running now. So this is very exciting, but we're really new because we're only two years old and we have big plans. So the scholarship just explained that to me. How does that work? How do how does one apply to that? If you're a female, wanna get on in the in the drinks business? Yes. So, we we wanna be able to, again, our mission is not only to support the women that have gotten there, but to pay it forward and to use them as role models for the next generation. So this foundation is very important, and we just, we just received our our paperwork start that we've already had contributions made to it. So they can apply online, and and we're actually gonna open applications for both professional development as well as continuing education. So applicants can come from anywhere in the world as long as they're female. Right? So we're we're looking at the different laws right now as far as where we can get that are. The goal is that applicants can come from anywhere and really what we wanna do is not only give the scholarships, but we will be starting an online mentorship program. So it would allow people to, I know, like, for Elena's daughter, she studied in Australia, and recently just came back. And that's very, very important so that they can learn a lot about different things and not just in the Viticulture producer side, but operations, finance, sales, especially succession plan. You have to learn to run the business. And I think that's where I want them to tell their stories because what's gonna resonate with the consumer is you're not just producing great wine. It's hard enough to grow it. You have to actually sell it. You have to be profitable. You have to sustain a business. You're a businesswoman, and your product is an agricultural product. So it is so difficult. And mother nature is your first boss. And if you're selling in America, you have distribution issues, it's it's really quite challenging. Okay. So I mean, that's that's industry focus. What do you think you might do in the future that would be say more consumer focused to get your message out there? And why it's important that the work that you're doing, is is is key to one's enjoyment of wine or wine quality or the ethics of wine or other other beverages? Well, we are we are a trade organization. So our first and foremost to to support each other on the trade. However, as I said, where I started, I started with consumer tastings, and they the consumer loved it because they want to meet the women of the vine. They want to see that they're mothers, that they're wives, that they're daughters, They wanna see that they're real people share their stories that they share in commonality. And that's what first builds relationships, which women love to do. And, you know, I joke about social media because I think women invented it before Facebook because when we find something we like, we tell all our friends, we tell our sisters, our girlfriends, our mom. So I think that's on the consumer side. If we come together, we formulate also a common message and theme. And that goes under the umbrella of women of the vine and spirits. So, Robrella, brilliant talking to you. It's a fantastic project. It's growing. And I'm sure you it's gonna grow even further. It's something that we desperately need in our industry, on all sorts of levels. Fantastic example, leading by example, really wish you every success from, obviously, a man. Well, we love our men of the vine, and I do wanna say we encourage all our men to participate with us because it is incredibly important. We're not doing this on our own. We're doing this together. We're doing it as families. We're doing it as brothers and sisters and husband and wives. So it's it's incredibly important. And especially for fathers because they're turning it to their daughters. So we really encourage and I have to say the support of some of the men has been tremendous and and we're very, very grateful for that. Brilliant. What a great note to end on. Thank you very much. Follow us at Italian wine podcast on Facebook.