Ep. 605 Helena Variara | Biodynamic & Organic

Italian wine podcast. Chinchin with Italian wine people. Hello. This is the Italian wine podcast with me Monty all in my guest today is Helena Variarra from Tuscany. Tell us the name of your estate and whereabouts in Tuscany are you? How did you get there? Okay. Our state is, named Columbia, and it's in, located in Minson and low quality Valdil Sacienna. It's a very tiny, tiny Siena Province. And which, denomination are you in even the county classico region? No. We are in the College and easy effectively, but we we are not anymore under the label of candy, you know. We we just the class, our, our wine to E GT is a choice. It's a political choice. Yeah. So the history of the state is your husband, Dante, it comes through his mother's side of the family. And it very clear, it was a very well known. The family business was very, very well known. Can you just give us a little bit of bit about the history? Yes. The history has come from, the the grandfather of Dante that was called Dante too. That was in Milano, and he had a big, big, house producing wine in the south of Italy in different areas. And also selling all around, Italy, mainly Emilano. So it was a big, big, a producer, I can say, more industrial vision, but it was at the beginning of the century. So it was very big, and he makes Good money, I think, with this. And after this, his son that is Piero, so the father of Dante, Dante now, bought this little property after he sold all the property of the grandfather because the, after the war, all the market changed, and there was a kind of little abandoned areas and so on, especially in the south. So they sell everything, and, and they bought this little property in Tuscany in the seventies, long time, abandoned, and they revealed to the Vania that was already here in the seventeenth century. And they just maintained the tradition to make some wine, some little wine for the friends and the rest was all sell to the big seller. So the father of Dante was a journalist, so was very busy and he he just do this like a hobby. Okay? We come in two thousand and three and we we do this full time. So we decided to to do this in a full time activity. But was, when they they bought the farm in nineteen seventy four, was was Dante, living there immediately, or when did he arrive Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He was living here and growing grow here. I mean, he leaving Milano when he was ten, I think. And he he come here to leave and he makes school here. So he makes some some part of his life. He was here. And then at at at twenty, he leave the the country life for going back to Milano, to have a city life and and there where we met effectively twenty seven years ago. And we worked together also in Milano, and then we decided to come back here in two thousand and three. Oh, so you met in the north, did you? Yes. Yes. Yes. We met we met in the north, and we were working in a TV business. So I was more on on the side of production contract and all these kind of procedures. And then there was more camera and director, activities. So we work together. We do a lot of works in in rye and other kind of, TV business. And then in two thousand three, we decided to come here and to take care of the farm because the father was old and just want to sell everything. And so we decided to come in and to take care. Okay. So from TV to going from TV studios to Octusk conditions with an abandoned, building and vineyard is is quite a leap, isn't it? Yes. It's it's a jump. It was a jump in the dark effectively. We were totally unprepared. I can say now with a totally unprepared, but we arrived here and we we have some kind of vision about agriculture, of course, Devania was already organic from the nineties. We had already kind of life, you know, in the city bicycle, organics, steiner school. So we had already a lot of information. Dante also made in the eighties a nice, five days. So one week course of, biodynamic agriculture in the north of Italy, La Cassini, that was famous place where where you do courses of biodynamic agriculture. But at that time, was even not, you know, thinking to, to come back to the country life. But anyway, when we arrive here, we we we just jump. I mean, everything was in place. So it was very easy in some sense. We have just to to work on it. And we decided to to go in full, you know, and and we we use biodynamic to learn through through the wreath, ma, through how the plants function and so on. So through biodynamic, we have been also transformed, and we fall in love with the vineyard first. And then we were, I can say now, between the first in Tuscany, especially, to decide also to vinify the the most pure as possible without an intervention. Because in our naive vision, we we had no idea how how complicated and how full of adjectives is the wine producing. So we were like astonished by this, but we decided to to go further, you know. We say, okay. We we we work closely to the plant. We respect everything. Why change this in the cellar? So we started looking for and we had the chance also to have some French friend that introduced us to the natural wine world that in Italy at that moment was really any existent. Did your neighbors think, hang on, we've got these it's classic, you know, these rich kids, and they like yoga and biodynamics? Was there a lot lot of hostility? What did people just think that you're a little bit crazy? No. No. There there was some kind of hostility because they they say that we are too small. Natural wine doesn't exist. The biodynamic, it's a bull that nobody knows, effectively so much. And everybody was saying you need, a famous technologist, it's too small, your, your your winery to make some money. You know, everybody was against our attitude. They say we are out topics, ideas. We have topics ideas. The reality is very different. But, we, we go on. You know, we were very, first determined. I see you as a threat that you're you're upsetting their orthodoxy that have, you know, we've we're in Tuscany, I mean, you can realize that Tuscany is quite traditional. This is how we do things, not like the way you're doing it. Why don't you go back to Milan? Exactly. Exactly. Like, we were, like, totally out from from the normal, but we we resist because we we have some reference that, give us courage, you know, when you met some French winemaker like us that work the land, that do the things, you know, not like many tasks can hear very rich with all people working for them, you know, they even don't know what's happening in the cellar, you know. We we know exactly, so. And and we want to do like this. So the inspiration from the French winemaker was very strong for us. And help us to to resist, you know, to the pressure. Who are the winemakers that were were helping you or speak you speaking with? But, of course, I I can mention many French that has been inspirational for us, but one the first was Marcel lapier that unfortunately, we lost, but he was one of the first that give us the courage to go on. And and also, you know, and he was one of the big, you know, of the movement of natural wine. And then, also, we met, some some friends from Reward. But there are many's, you know, that we we get information in some sense and courage from them to go on. So how tell me a little bit about the vineyard. How big is it? What have you got planted, soil type? That kind of So we have three point nine hectares. And, when we arrived, we have, especially the the old Vania that now is fifty five, that it's typical county, mix of grapes. So we have sangiovese, mainly eighty percent, then colorino, Malazianera, and canayolo. And the young one yard we plant in two thousand and five is also typical grapes of Tuscany San Giovanni and Colorino. But, the father of Dante insist to put some few row of cabernet sauvignon. Okay? We discuss about that, but okay. He was the boss at that time. So we decided, okay, to consent to this, Cabernet sauvignon. And, we never quantify, the Cabernet sauvignon, I mean, we always separate and vilify for him. And we've been fighting the young vineyard and the old vineyard separately. So it's a parcel wine, I can say. This because we just realized that the new clones of sangiovese we have more than five in the young vineyard are completely different from the old Sanjay from the seventies. In structure, color, way of verification and time also of expression in a sense that the old vineyard need the three years to express itself, long. But contrary, the young vineyard is quite ready soon. It's very powerful, crunchy, beautiful sangiovese. I mean, I would like very much, but they are very, very different. So At that point, we realized that the old vineyard is quite rare in Tuscany, quite disappeared. And so we are also replanting in the old vineyards, where we have some hole, you know, because some plants are dying. So we replace with the same kind of breed of sangiovese, trying to keep, you know, the the original, sangiovese. Yeah. They'll be a player player types won't they? And, So in terms of the winemaking, are you is it stainless steel, a body cement? What have you got? We we have concrete tank, under the soil, very near to to the vineyard, so we can arrive every fifty minutes in the harvest by, of course, by hand. And, we we put the grapes inside the concrete tank, especially the old vineyard. It's all in concrete tank with a submerged cap, horse is distinct, but it's keep the skin in infusion. Okay? And it's fresh also naturally. So no control temperature. But contrary, the young vineyard and the little bit of white we have we use a steiner still directly. This is because we like the steiner still. The crunchiness is more evident in the in the young vineyard. For contrary, the old vineyard passed through the cement, the concrete tank and then a three years in a big barrel, Ocos, Livonia, old one, twenty six, six dollars. Okay. In terms of your soil for the San Diego, I mean, how do how would you describe the tenons, that you get on San Diego, on your particular soils? I think I think we have a good balance between tannin and, and, characteristic of Sanjay, transparency, elegance, and deepness. But also, we are very soft on touching the sangiovese because we find that sangiovese can be immediately, extremely tannic if you don't pay attention. So, we are very soft and pressing. And we use very simple electric soft press, but, very soft and pressing and and and very we don't touch too much. You know, we don't try to extract too much from our sangiovese. And this is why I think we have this elegance and this freshness all the time. So for your, for your red, what are when do they start to, show? Did it do they need a year in bottle or a couple of years? I think, they, we discover with time because we are still learning that, our, our wine are very good in time. I mean, they resist very well. I mean, that is our importer that discovered this. I mean, they keep the bottle and then they make us tasting again. So we just taste recently in two thousand and eight that it's even so good now than when we sell it, you know. So so we we we discover too because, also with this meat that wine without sulfites cannot survive, you know, there is kind of strange ideas that in reality is not true at all. And so I find our wine quite, they are we we bottle when they are ready. And, we wait six months one year, depends from the vintages before starting to to taste with our importers or sommelier or people because we like that the wine is stable, you know, there in itself. Like I say, with his complete body formed, the portions formed. So bottle is very important also. For all your wines, no added cell fights or or just, like, some of them? No. I think the Vignavecchia is the most delicate in this sense. The young manual and the white that, we make in a long maceration for months, maceration on skin, it's very they they went fast. So they are ready in one ear. I mean, we bottle and then we can sell as up, I can say. The bottling also is done by gravity with the moon in the right position and everything. And it's quite not so stressing for our wine. So it's more the the old Vania that needs time to recompose a little bit after bottling and to the definition make it more elegant and and ready to to enjoy, you know, and to travel too. So What what do you see in the future in general for, natural wine, bottle neck wine? I mean, now now we are a little bit on the fashion wave apart from now with COVID and what everything has happened. Everything has been a little bit like, you know, extended the, like, pose for a moment. But, I mean, I'm happy that there are more and more new winemakers on natural wine words. That means that the message I mean, the the possibility and also the people have understand that the opportunity not only commercially. That's that's the bad people do this. But the youngest and the the new generation is more and more going near to this way of thinking about wine, you know. Wine is not indispensable. It's something is give a pleasure is a substance that elevates your spirit, but is not indispensable. So it's very good that we we are going through a natural winemaking. So we pollute a little bit less than the other agriculture industry is doing all around. And wine, it's a it's a big contribute to to pollution. So I'm very happy that this movement has been, you know, defund more and more. So it's okay. We are all different, all with his own characteristics. So no problem. I think also being in Tuscany helps because the percentage of, organic and biodynamic is is growing quite strong some regions. So that's good, good for the future. I mean, what do you see for you personally, for the future of the estate personally? And then globally, do you think these this sort of trend towards organic and biodynamic will continue or will people get bored and find what a new But, you know, I think for me, biodynamic, it's the agriculture of the future. Even in this last day, probably you have read also, there has been a big attack against the biodynamic. It's considered like, you know, drew into the practice or something like this. There was different articles on the newspaper, shooting against biodynamic agriculture. I think there is always the same discussion. You make the wine with the moon with this kind of things. And this make me a little bit smile because these are knowledge of the past in some sense everybody in the past know that have to plant in the right moment that the moon have his importance in the act you you have on the land. So make me a little bit smiling about this opposition from I think from the lobbies, you know, that the biodynamic, it's a druid, the practice, and it's nothing. And so on. But the reality is that, when you when you practice, you can see the difference, and it's very visible. Even the practice you you you use seems a little bit like nothing, you know, because you minimize and then you spray some little drops and you see, this is crazy. But then you see the land changing the structure of the land is changing. The plants are more happy. And you can see. So it and this changed your mind, you know? That that's why so many people now is converting and understanding more and more about Biodynamic. And understanding is possible. You can do more simple, you know. That is also interesting. Biodynamic is giving a message that agriculture is possible in a different way. More quality, less quantity, look to to the inner to the inner things, you know, and also more health for you, agriculture, and for the people around you. So I think this will be more and more, funded. For our point of view, we we we maintain little, you know, we want to we want to leave and to do this, till we can, you know, because time is crucial. Making wine, you make once a year. So if you make a mistake, you have to wait another year. And then you depend so much from whether, sixty percent, I think it depends from what's happened on the sky. So you are so, so nothing, you know, in relationship to to what what we do in reality. So for for for me, for our point of view, we we will go on with these. So we will try to be, you know, the best we can. And and that's it. You know, our relationship are still there. We we we built our relationship and, they are growing and and and consolidate. So we are happy like this. I mean, we don't want anymore. Yeah. I mean, you're right. It is it is continuing to grow and, even internationally now with some some of the countries which we won't name that were a little bit anti, organic and biodynamic in in times past. I mean, it is slowly building. And in sum, it really quickly building. I mean, Tuscany's got a huge percentage of organic estates. And, obviously, in general, it's got high high percentages as well. So, yeah, it's very nice to hear from you. Nothing. Thank you for for calling me. Alan is a state, and Dante's estate was one of the first I I visit it as a as a journalist, as, writing about Tuscany. And it was a for the day I remember. Your enthusiasm then is obviously not diminished. No. No. Not really. No. Yeah. We just fantastic. And, just wanna say thanks to you for telling us a little bit about the history of the estate. Sorry Dante couldn't be with us. No. Sorry. Sorry. Two. He he say hello to you, and we hope to see you here again. Okay? Yeah. Thanks, Dan. Just keep up keep up the good work. Take care. Yeah. Thank you. Chateau. Bye bye. Listen to the Italian wine podcast wherever you get your podcasts. We're on SoundCloud, Apple Podcasts, HimalISM, and more. Don't forget to subscribe and rate the show. If you enjoy listening, please consider donating through Italian wine podcast dot com. Any amount helps cover equipment, production, and publication costs. Until next time,